WITHDRAWN - Wizard's Trove (ME The White Hand)

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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CDavis7M
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WITHDRAWN - Wizard's Trove (ME The White Hand)

Post by CDavis7M » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:14 am

This submission is withdrawn for the reasons given below.



CURRENT TEXT:
WIZARD'S TROVE wrote: You may play The White Tree at one of your Wizardhavens [ [-me_sp-] ] if Sapling of the White Tree is stored there. Place Wizard's Trove with The White Tree -- which is worth full marshalling points. Your Wizardhaven [ [-me_sp-] ] becomes protected. Ignore the text of The White Tree.

Alternatively, you may store one miscellaneous marshalling point card at one of your Wizardhavens [ [-me_sp-] ]. Any reference to the site where the card can normally be stored are transferred instead to the Wizardhaven [ [-me_sp-] ]. Place Wizard's Trove with the stored card -- which is worth full marshalling points.
PRIOR HOLDING [COE 18]:
(I am not sure who/what "COE 18" is)
CoE 18 wrote:19. Can any misc MP card be stored with Wizard's Trove, even if the card cannot normally be stored at all (e.g. Faithless Steward)? How about storing cards whose conditions are not yet met (uninverted Padding Feet, Fate of the Ithil- stone...) - worth full MP?

*** No and no. The card must be normally storable. The "full marshalling points" that the misc. MP card is worth is referring to more than the normal 1 MP that FW normally receive for non-stage cards. This does not mean that it is worth more than what it would be worth to a non-FW player.
RELATED OFFICIAL RULES:
The White Hand Rules Insert wrote: WIZARDHAVENS - When rules and non-site cards refer to Havens and Darkhavens, they apply instead to your Wizardhavens. The special effects of METW Havens (i.e healing, bringing characters into play, etc.) now apply to your companies at your Wizardhavens. These same effects do not apply to your companies at ME:LE Darkhavens and ME:TW Havens.

...

YOUR PLAY DECK - The resource half of your play deck (and your sideboard) may include hero, minion and stage resources. But, you are limited to:
...
You may not include any of the following cards: The Balrog, Cracks of Doom, Favor of the Valar, Gollum's Fate, Hour of Need, Kill All But Not the Halflings, The Lidless Eye, The Sun Unveiled, Glamour of Surpassing Excellence, Messenger of Mordor, News Must Get Through, News of the Shire, Old Road, The Windlord Found Me, Wizard Uncloaked, Use Your Legs
RELATED DISCUSSION:
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... =16&t=3708

QUESTIONS TO BE ANSWERED:
Wizard's Trove contains a first clause that enables White Tree to be played. Wizard's Trove contains a second clause enabling a miscellaneous marshalling points card to be stored at a Wizardshaven and receive full marshalling points. To summarize the second clause, you may (1) store one misc point card at a wizardhaven, (2) transfer references to the site where the card can normally be played to the Wizardhaven, and (3) receive full marshalling points.

It is unclear whether (A) the wording of parts (1) and (2) of the second clause merely re-iterate the rules providing that references to havens/darkhavens on non-site cards refers to wizardhavens or (B) Wizard's Trove enables non-storable cards to be stored. Which is the proper meaning of the card, (A) or (B)?

For reference, there is no such misc MP card that can be stored somewhere other than a haven/darkhaven that is not specifically excluded from being used by fallen wizards. For instance, all of the misc MP cards that can be stored at Barad Dur (and not at a darkhaven) cannot be included in fallen wizard play decks per the rules. As such, both (1) and (2) either (A) re-iterate the existing rules or (B) enable non-storable cards to be stored.

PROPOSED ERRATA:
This proposed errata clarifies the existing holding and current understanding that Wizard's Trove Requires a storable card and does not enable non-storable cards to be stored (meaning that cards like Mallorn, which are "played" at a site and not "stored", cannot be stored with this amendment). This would also prevent cards from being stored "as a bypass" to their conditions (e.g., Fate of the Ithil Stone, etc) because these cards are not storable unless their conditions are met. Bolded underlinings show additions to the wording. While other parts of the wording are not ideal, I attempted to make the smallest change possible while still providing clarity for the questions to be answered.
WIZARD's TROVE - Proposed Errata wrote: You may play The White Tree at one of your Wizardhavens [ [-me_sp-] ] if Sapling of the White Tree is stored there. Place Wizard's Trove with The White Tree -- which is worth full marshalling points. Your Wizardhaven [ [-me_sp-] ] becomes protected. Ignore the text of The White Tree.

Alternatively, you may store one storable miscellaneous marshalling point card at one of your Wizardhavens [ [-me_sp-] ]. Any reference to the site where the card can normally be stored are transferred instead to the Wizardhaven [ [-me_sp-] ]. Place Wizard's Trove with the stored card -- which is worth full marshalling points.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Wizard's Trove (ME The White Hand)

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:34 am

Why I am against:
Give a some clarifying text for one card that does not need it necessarily, and then many other cards will actually need it.
Because it makes the impression that the clarifying text changes a meaning, so lack of the text changes meaning too.

Vide: "does not count against the one character per turn limit." in text of We Have Come to Kill, not present in text of A Chance Meeting.
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Re: Wizard's Trove (ME The White Hand)

Post by CDavis7M » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:23 pm

The prior ruling and the understanding from the related discussion state that Wizard's Trove does not enable non-storable cards to be stored. But, then why does the existing text of the second clause seem to reiterate the standard rules unless it is creating a new play allowance?

The card could have simply stated "Alternatively, place Wizard's Trove with a stored miscellaneous marshalling point card -- which is worth full marshalling points" without stating that you may "store one miscellaneous marshalling point card".

In fact, The White Tree is a non-storable card. The Alternative in the second clause would seem to enable this same functionality for other non-storable cards (eg Mallorn, even Return of the King).

Given that the text of the card says something different than the existing ruling/understanding, I think some clarification either way is required.



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Re: Wizard's Trove (ME The White Hand)

Post by Theo » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:09 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:14 am
(I am not sure who/what "COE 18" is)
CoE #X refers to CoE NetRep publications, which are meant to be Clarifications of the original rules, or Fill-ins for rule gaps. They are generally not supposed to be Overrulings (but are on rare occasions). I believe #18 was under Brian Wong.

"NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct."

Given CoE #18, there is no need for the erratum you propose. Redundant clarification that this is the official use of the card wouldn't hurt, but still wouldn't stop me from wondering whether it is correct. ;)

Unless what you're proposing is that the CoE #18 ruling is definitely Incorrect, and there is a need for errata to make it correct. But I think in order to make this claim, I would want more of a global sense of the correct way to interpret cards in general (hopefully something Konrad is working on as an alternative to literal word consistency, as mentioned in that thread). That the current restrictive interpretation doesn't actually apply to any card is not enough justification for me.
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Re: Wizard's Trove (ME The White Hand)

Post by CDavis7M » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:47 pm

Well, I do not know what a "NetRep" is. Presumably an official rule maker. But now that I understand that the previous COE18 holding is official, I agree that this submission should be withdrawn.

I asked elsewhere before, but I am looking for a listing of the older errata, such as this CoE 18 but cannot find it. I would think they would be listed on this forum.

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Re: WITHDRAWN - Wizard's Trove (ME The White Hand)

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:47 am

CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:23 pm
The prior ruling and the understanding from the related discussion state that Wizard's Trove does not enable non-storable cards to be stored. But, then why does the existing text of the second clause seem to reiterate the standard rules unless it is creating a new play allowance?
If you read:
"Alternatively, you may store one miscellaneous marshalling point card at one of your Wizardhavens"
in separation from rest of paragraph, you may ask why it reiterates what rules make possible anyway.
Or why "one", while rules do not make a limit.

Because reading in conjunction with rest of paragraph changes a sense.
Orphaned:
"Any reference to the site where the card can normally be stored are transferred instead to the Wizardhaven"
does not make any sense too.
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Re: Wizard's Trove (ME The White Hand)

Post by Theo » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:40 am

CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:47 pm
I asked elsewhere before, but I am looking for a listing of the older errata, such as this CoE 18 but cannot find it. I would think they would be listed on this forum.
#114 and later seem to be posted in these forums, though buried. I've grabbed the older CoE listings from the Dutch council's website, which made a 341-page Google doc to which I've been slowly adding my own doc comments for contradictions and overturnings. But I also recently found this:
CoE #114 wrote:For a long time, the best electronic versions of the rules were located at the Dutch council's website. That, however, is no longer the case. The Council of Elrond, through the arm of the Judge Certification Project, has recently completed newly-edited electronic versions of all rules inserts. These documents are available at www.councilofelrond.org under the "Rules" tab. Please note that henceforth the documents currently available on the Dutch Council site are considered illegitimate. We at the CoE hope that soon they will choose either to make available our editions, or that they will simply cease to make claims to having the official rules. In any case, please do not reference the deficient copies currently available at the Dutch site.
Sadly, the referenced rules do not seem to have made the website transition.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
Have I not earnestly studied this matter?
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Re: Wizard's Trove (ME The White Hand)

Post by kober » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:33 pm

Theo wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:40 am
Sadly, the referenced rules do not seem to have made the website transition.
Quite the contrary, the "recently completed newly-edited electronic versions of all rules inserts" are available on CoE website, although the last time they were considered "new" was probably back in 2007 ;)
Theo wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:40 am
I've grabbed the older CoE listings from the Dutch council's website, which made a 341-page Google doc to which I've been slowly adding my own doc comments for contradictions and overturnings.
Not sure whether you're referencing the same doc, but I've attached "CoE Rulings Digest 1-125" (compiled by Fallen Gandalf back in 2014) to this post.
Attachments
CoE Rulings Digests 1-125.pdf
(1.56 MiB) Downloaded 29 times

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Re: WITHDRAWN - Wizard's Trove (ME The White Hand)

Post by CDavis7M » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:36 pm

Wow! That's huge.

Thank you!

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Re: Wizard's Trove (ME The White Hand)

Post by the Jabberwock » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:48 pm

kober wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:33 pm
Theo wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:40 am
Sadly, the referenced rules do not seem to have made the website transition.
Quite the contrary, the "recently completed newly-edited electronic versions of all rules inserts" are available on CoE website, although the last time they were considered "new" was probably back in 2007 ;)
Thanks for helping out kober! You beat me to the punch. :wink:

FYI... a new, official URD is still being worked on, I promise. It has turned out to be a monumental project which is taking much longer than I had anticipated. It will incorporate relevant CRF, NetRep, ICE Digest rulings etc. into various parts of the document. Hopefully once this is released, it will no longer be necessary to dig through all the old NetRep rulings.

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Re: Wizard's Trove (ME The White Hand)

Post by Theo » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:33 pm

kober wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:33 pm
Theo wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:40 am
Sadly, the referenced rules do not seem to have made the website transition.
Quite the contrary, the "recently completed newly-edited electronic versions of all rules inserts" are available on CoE website, although the last time they were considered "new" was probably back in 2007 ;)
Oh, that was what they were referring to? Unfortunately several significant typos seem to have been introduced. (Check out the MELE Glossary for Action, for example.)
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
Have I not earnestly studied this matter?
Look up "e.g." if e.g. you think that it is an all-encompassing list.

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Re: WITHDRAWN - Wizard's Trove (ME The White Hand)

Post by the Jabberwock » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:06 am

DECLINED due to author withdrawing submission.

(Note: I am locking this topic at this time for record-keeping purposes)

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