Actions created by playing an item

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Konrad Klar
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Actions created by playing an item

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:37 pm

Texts of some item cards state that some action happens after playing the item.
Timing of the actions is uncertain, especially if playing of such item is one of actions of chain of effects that contains other actions, or if such item is played in result of other action (e.g. in result of Bounty of the Hoard, or Thing Stolen).

Proposed regulation:

"If text of an item card states that an action happens after playing of the item, the action bacomes first action of a nested chain of effects. This means that a flow of execution of current chain of effects is halted until nested chain of effects will finish. No action may be declared in response to the action, unless it is a dice-rolling action; an action that targets the dice-rolling action may be declared in response.
If the action is a strike, an actions that may be otherwise declared in strike sequence may be declared.
If the action is an attack, an actions that directly affect an attack may be declared; an actions that may be otherwise declared in strike sequence may be declared."
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the Jabberwock
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Re: Actions created by playing an item

Post by the Jabberwock » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:06 am

Will you please provide an example or two which illustrate the problem and what is being fixed with the regulation proposed? Thank you.

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Re: Actions created by playing an item

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:14 am

When Bounty of the Hoard resolves, chain of effects in which it was declared is not finished yet (even if there are no other actions in the chain waiting for its resolution).

In result of Bounty of the Hoard the Forgotten Scrolls is played that causes Trap attack.
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the Jabberwock
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Re: Actions created by playing an item

Post by the Jabberwock » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:39 am

So can you provide an example that would illustrate the importance of whether the Trap Attack (with Forgotten Scrolls) takes place immediately before the Bounty of the Hoard chain resolves vs it taking place after the Bounty of the Hoard chain resolves?

Also, since Attacks must begin their own chain of effects by rule, isn't it clear that the Trap Attack would take place as the first declared action immediately following the resolution of the Bounty of the Hoard chain of effects?

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Re: Actions created by playing an item

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:39 am

Forgotten Scrolls wrote:Lost Knowledge. Can also be played at Minas Tirith (if the site is tapped). Cannot be included with a starting company. After this item is played, the bearer faces an attack (cannot be canceled): Trap-1 strike with 8 prowess (weapons do not modify prowess against this strike). If its bearer is at a Ruins & Lairs [R], discard Forgotten Scrolls to make information playable at the site until the end of turn.
Attack is created not "if this item is played" but "After this item is played".
So I think that in this case there is not action caused by passive condition that potentially could be produced later. So rules that govern actions caused by passive conditions are not applicable.

In typical situation Forgotten Scrolls is played as one card chain of effects. So Trap attack may be declared as first action of next chain.
However sometimes Forgotten Scrolls may be played in middle (as result) of other chain of effects.
Compare this situation with resolution of Tower Raided.
Tower Raided wrote:Playable during the site phase on an untapped Shadow-hold [-me_sh-] if your company there: bears an item worth at least 2 marshalling points, contains an untapped scout, and discard for no effect a Stolen Knowledge card it controls. Tap the site and discard the item. Company faces an attack: Orcs-4 strikes with 8 prowess. By the end of the site phase, tap a scout in the company or discard this card. If this card is not discarded, all versions of this site are now Ruins & Lairs [-me_rl-] , and no factions are playable there. Discard this card when the site is discarded or returned to your location deck.
To declare anything that would directly affect Orcs attack (and to declare anything in strike sequences) we need space for other chains of effects. This is no more, no less but nested chains of effects. After completion of the nested chains of effects, a flow of execution returns to main chain of effects.
the Jabberwock wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:39 am
Also, since Attacks must begin their own chain of effects by rule, isn't it clear that the Trap Attack would take place as the first declared action immediately following the resolution of the Bounty of the Hoard chain of effects?
No. This is case for actions caused by passive conditions, not necessary attacks, and if the passive condition has been produced in chain of effects.
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Re: Actions created by playing an item

Post by Theo » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:49 pm

CoE #22 wrote:Any card that has the potential to immediately create an attack is considered an attack for purposes of interpreting CRF Annotation 15.
This would prevent any item that creates a trap attack from being played during an existing chain of effects.

I assume "after" means "immediately after"... otherwise there is no limit on the delay before facing the attack, and I could choose it to be after the game ends.
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Re: Actions created by playing an item

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:33 am

The "after playing X actions" never happen in chain of effects in which X has been played.
So they are never first declared actions of chain of effects containing X.
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