Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:02 pm
Does or should Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees require the untapped character to face the strike?
No. It does not allow him to opt to remain untapped against the strike.
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Re: Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees

Post by Khamul the Easterling »

CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:02 pm
But what about other cards that let the defender assign multiple strikes to one character? Should an untapped character be forced to face the strike? It would be nice to address these related issues here.
As far as I understand the submission, FBiFF does not make any ruling on whom strikes do have to be assigned. Just in case (by whatever effect) an untapped character is assigned a strike, he may not opt to remain untapped.

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Re: Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees

Post by CDavis7M »

Ok. This is great information relevant to Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees. My thought is that it would be nice to include clarifications along with the errata so that the intent is clear for a player that plays their printed copy of Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees and now has questions.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Theo
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Re: Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees

Post by Theo »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:02 pm
Untapped character may not opt to remain untapped against the strike but still can avoid being tapped after the strike is resolved.
This may happen e.g. if he bears Sable Shield and strike would wound him otherwise.
Sable Shield should not stop the tapping caused by Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees. Its CRF language has its own identical problems to FBiFF (no characters ever normally tap "while" facing a strike, they are tapped after the strike is resolved unless they choose to avoid being so tapped). But indeed, it should get its own fix.

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Khamul the Easterling wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:14 pm
I've slightly changed the proposal (underlined) so that it is somewhat similar to the phrasing of the Alatar erratum.
My language above was modeled on the original rules on characters being tapped, which to me is a better basis. But to each their own!
MELE wrote:Normally a character that is the target of a strike is tapped after the strike is resolved. However, a character that is the target of a strike may choose to take a -3 modification to his prowess to avoid being tapped. If so, the character is not tapped after the strike is resolved (he may still be wounded).
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CDavis7M
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Re: Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees

Post by CDavis7M »

Even the official examples of combat take this "shortcut" in describing the choice to take the -3 modification. Very unfortunate.

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Re: Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees

Post by Konrad Klar »

Theo wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:33 am
Sable Shield should not stop the tapping caused by Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees. Its CRF language has its own identical problems to FBiFF (no characters ever normally tap "while" facing a strike, they are tapped after the strike is resolved unless they choose to avoid being so tapped). But indeed, it should get its own fix.
Normal result of successful strike from non-detainment attack is wounding a defending character.
For bearer of Sable Shield the result is instead dice-roll.
A defending character that was untapped while facing such strike will be automatically tapped only if the strike is not successful.
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Re: Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees

Post by Khamul the Easterling »

Theo wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:33 am
Khamul the Easterling wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:14 pm
I've slightly changed the proposal (underlined) so that it is somewhat similar to the phrasing of the Alatar erratum.
My language above was modeled on the original rules on characters being tapped, which to me is a better basis. But to each their own!
OK, that is convincing. Better adapt the phrasing to the general rules than to the specific Alatar text.

If the other discussants are still ok with it, then let's stick to Theo's previous proposal which was
Theo wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:30 am
Playable on a moving company facing a non-unique hazard creature if Gates of Morning is in play. All attacks of the creature are canceled and all attacks of the next non-unique hazard creature the company faces this turn are also canceled. Any character in the company facing a strike from a subsequent hazard creature attack this turn cannot avoid being tapped if untapped after the strike is resolved. The company can do nothing during its site phase unless it contains a Wizard or you discard Eagle-mounts from your hand. Cannot be duplicated on a given turn.
I'd only suggest to rephrase "cannot avoid being tapped if untapped after the strike" by "is tapped if untapped after the strike". To me, that has essentially the same meaning, but I prefer it from a language point of view (though non-native English speaker ;) )

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Re: Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees

Post by Konrad Klar »

Theo wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:30 am
* Errata: "untapped characters must tap to face any strike" => "untapped character cannot take -3 penalty to avoid tapping after strike".
This was and is my only goal.
"Beautifying" of some phrases may change their meaning.
I stick with my last proposal.
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Re: Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees

Post by Theo »

Khamul the Easterling wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:49 pm
I'd only suggest to rephrase "cannot avoid being tapped if untapped after the strike" by "is tapped if untapped after the strike". To me, that has essentially the same meaning, but I prefer it from a language point of view (though non-native English speaker ;) )
I also prefer the language of second of those. The only point for the first one is just absolute clarity with respect to the original rules. Hypothetically, I could foresee the (remote) possibility that someone might believe that "is tapped if untapped after the strike" might not be referring to the default combat rule and instead believe that it should be treated as a stronger passive condition created by a short event with default "until end of turn" duration.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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Re: Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees

Post by Khamul the Easterling »

Konrad, as you said you wanted to stick to your last proposal, which I think is this one:
Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:02 pm
"Playable on a moving company facing a non-unique hazard creature if Gates of Morning is in play. All attacks of the creature are canceled and all attacks of the next non-unique hazard creature the company faces this turn are also canceled. Any untapped character in the company facing a strike from a subsequent hazard creature attack this turn cannot opt to remain untapped against the strike. The company can do nothing during its site phase unless it contains a Wizard or you discard Eagle-mounts from your hand. Cannot be duplicated on a given turn."
I object the "cannot opt to remain untapped" will still cause discussion like in combination with a card like Block:
Block wrote:Warrior only. Warrior does not tap against one strike (unless he is wounded by the strike).
People might argue playing Block is not technically the same as opting to remain untapped. The character doesn't opt for anything, he just falls under the effects from a card. Consequently, a character on whom Block is played would not have to be tapped according to your proposal. (Not sure if you intended that)
My understanding is, however, that a character is tapped after the strike in any case. That's why I think a phrasing like
is tapped if untapped after the strike
is stating that more clearly.

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CDavis7M
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Re: Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees

Post by CDavis7M »

It's hard to guess at the intention, but potentially block should prevent tapping. We should just be clear on the cards that are related.

Here is the player guide entry, but it is not much help with respect to Block, etc.

Be sure to include 3x Windlord!

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Re: Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees

Post by Konrad Klar »

Khamul the Easterling wrote: People might argue playing Block is not technically the same as opting to remain untapped. The character doesn't opt for anything, he just falls under the effects from a card. Consequently, a character on whom Block is played would not have to be tapped according to your proposal. (Not sure if you intended that)
This was not intended by me.

"Playable on a moving company facing a non-unique hazard creature if Gates of Morning is in play. All attacks of the creature are canceled and all attacks of the next non-unique hazard creature the company faces this turn are also canceled. Any character in the company facing a strike from a subsequent hazard creature attack this turn cannot attempt to avoid being tapped if untapped after the strike is resolved. The company can do nothing during its site phase unless it contains a Wizard or you discard Eagle-mounts from your hand. Cannot be duplicated on a given turn."

This modification to the Theo's proposal should reconcile a preventing actions like playing Block and not stopping effect of Sable Shield.
The latter effect happens automatically; player does not make attempt to use it. Only he decides that the character uses Sable Shield at given time if he bears multiple shields.

EDIT: Corrected misquote.
Last edited by Konrad Klar on Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees

Post by Khamul the Easterling »

OK, I'm trying to sum up, please have a look:

1) A character may not choose the option of taking a -3 modification and stay untapped (think we've all agreed on this so far)
2) "Block" can be played on an untapped character and he remains untapped after the strike's resolved.
3) An untapped character bearing Sable Shield is untapped (if not wounded) after the strike's resolved
4) An untapped character bearing Enruned Shield may tap the shield. After the strike's resoled, he is still untapped.

If you disagree, please comment line by line, thank you!

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Re: Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees

Post by Konrad Klar »

Khamul the Easterling wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:20 pm
2) "Block" can be played on an untapped character and he remains untapped after the strike's resolved.
"Block" cannot be played on an untapped character. Playing "Block" is the attempt to avoid being tapped if untapped after the strike is resolved.
Khamul the Easterling wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:20 pm
3) An untapped character bearing Sable Shield is untapped (if not wounded) after the strike's resolved
An untapped character bearing Sable Shield is untapped (if strike otherwise would wound him if he would not bear Sable Shield) after the strike's resolved.
Khamul the Easterling wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:20 pm
4) An untapped character bearing Enruned Shield may tap the shield. After the strike's resoled, he is still untapped.
After the strike is resoled, he is tapped.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:47 am
CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:04 am
People might argue playing Block is not technically the same as opting to remain untapped. The character doesn't opt for anything, he just falls under the effects from a card. Consequently, a character on whom Block is played would not have to be tapped according to your proposal. (Not sure if you intended that)
This was not intended by me.
This was not written by me.

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