Bow of Alatar

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Moriquendi
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BOW OF ALATAR ‐ Permanent‐event (R)
[SP: 2; CP: 1]
Unique. Alatar specific. Place this card on Alatar if he is in play. If on Alatar, you may tap Bow of Alatar to allow him to face a strike from an attack against his company regardless of the attackʹs normal capabilities and his status. If such a strike fails, the attackʹs body is reduced by 1.

I'd like to request a vote to add an errata to specify precisely when this ability may be used.


My proposed errata:
BOW OF ALATAR ‐ Permanent‐event (R)
[SP: 2; CP: 1]
Unique. Alatar specific. Place this card on Alatar if he is in play. If on Alatar, you may tap Bow of Alatar to allow him to face a strike from an attack against his company regardless of the attackʹs normal capabilities and his status. This ability may be activated immediately before any Strike Sequence of an attack. If such a strike fails, the attackʹs body is reduced by 1.

The issue at hand was briefly discussed here:
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... tar#p27451

I believe this is how the card's ability was intended to be used, just like tapping a weapon, or playing a Risky Blow, Dodge, Block, etc. immediately before the strike sequence is resolved:
Strike Sequence:
The series of events that resolves an
assigned strike, performed in the following order:
• Start with the defending character’s prowess as a base value.
• The defending character applies a weapon modifier to his prowess if applicable.
• The attacker may play hazard cards that affectthe strike (not strike assignment).
• The attacker may decide to use any or all of his remaining unassigned strikes as -1 modifiers.
» Excess strikes applied as -1 modifi ers do not have to have their body defeated [CRF].
» You may not cancel unassigned strikes [CoE 19].
• A target untapped character may take a -3 modification so that he will not automatically tap following the strike sequence.
• The defending player may play resource cards that affect the strike (up to one card that requires skill). You may also use items if applicable.
• Interpret “may play resource cards that affect the strike” above as “may initiate resource/character effects that affect the strike” [CRF, CoE 4].

Now - what would be the effect of this?

1) An attack with 2 or more strikes would allow Alatar to face 2 of those strikes.

(Hazard player declares Giant Spiders. No cancellation cards are played. Alatar faces the first strike untapped, taps to face the strike and resolves the strike sequence. Alatar's player then taps the Bow of Alatar, and Alatar faces a second strike sequence tapped)

2) An attack where "Attacker chooses defending characters" would allow Alatar's player to decide which assigned strike to face and when.

(Ambusher is declared, defender does not cancel the attack, strikes are assigned to Gimli and Ioreth. Defender chooses Gimli to resolve his strike sequence first. Gimli resolves his strike sequence. Alatar's player taps Bow of Alatar. Alatar faces the 2nd strike of the attack instead of Ioreth.)

-Alternatively, and also valid-

(Ambusher is declared, Alatar's player does not cancel the attack, strikes are assigned to Gimli and Ioreth. Alatar's player taps Bow of Alatar, declaring he is resolving Ioreth's strike sequence first. Alatar resolves the first strike sequence. Gimli then faces the strike assigned to him.)
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Theo
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Well, I would argue that this is a clarification rather than erratum. But regardless, my opinion is that this was the intent of the card.
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Zakath
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I don't think facing multiple strikes or 'stealing' strikes from other characters was the intent of the card at all. Look at cards like Many Foes He Fought or Usriev of Treachery - they are very explicit about granting a character the ability to face more than one strike from a single attack.

On the other hand, look at Great Troll - I think that is more in line with what Bow of Alatar was intended to do.

My take on it is that Bow of Alatar was designed to allow you to elect to have Alatar face exactly one of the strikes from an attack against his company, even if he was tapped, wounded, or the attacker normally chose defending characters. If it was designed to interact with the resolution of the strike sequence itself, I think it would have said so more explicitly.

Personally, I would be more in favor of a clarification that stated that Bow of Alatar must be activated prior to strike assignment if it is to be used against an attack.
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Konrad Klar
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I agree with Zakath.
Text of Bow of Alatar may be not super clear, but it contains everything what is required to interpret it, and does not contain errors.
As such it requires only clarification.
"May only by tapped for its effect before a strikes are assigned."
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Moriquendi
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There are several cards that explicitly state they must be played/enacted before strikes are assigned from every expansion prior to MEWH.

-More sense than you
-Gold chains in the wind
-All the bells ringing
-Helm of her secrecy
-Noble hound
-Motionless among the slain
-Sojourn in shadows

Bow of Alatar is not one of them.
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Konrad Klar
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A cards/effects that cancel an attack also do not state the they may be declared only before strikes are assigned.
A cards/effects that change a number a strikes also do not state the they may be declared only before strikes are assigned.
Many Foes He Fought does not state explicitly that it may be declared only before strikes are assigned.

When a status (untapped/tapped/wounded) and capabilities of attack (attacker/defender chooses defending characters) matters?
If the effect of tapping of Bow of Alatar would be so irrespective to the rules that decide about order of assigning a strikes, that it would be allowed to be declared after assigning a strikes, then how is meaning of "regardless of the attackʹs normal capabilities and his status"?
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Moriquendi
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Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:36 pm A cards/effects that cancel an attack also do not state the they may be declared only before strikes are assigned.
A cards/effects that change a number a strikes also do not state the they may be declared only before strikes are assigned.
Many Foes He Fought does not state explicitly that it may be declared only before strikes are assigned.
When these type of cards may be played during a hazard creature attack is identified in the rules, so it does not need to be stated on the card itself.

Example: Cards that modify a hazard's prowess or strikes must be played first. Cards that cancel an attack must be played second. Cards that cancel a strike, may be played during the start of the strike sequence for that particular strike. etc. etc.
When a status (untapped/tapped/wounded) and capabilities of attack (attacker/defender chooses defending characters) matters?
If the effect of tapping of Bow of Alatar would be so irrespective to the rules that decide about order of assigning a strikes, that it would be allowed to be declared after assigning a strikes, then how is meaning of "regardless of the attackʹs normal capabilities and his status"?
I'm not quite following you here. How is tapping the Bow any different than say, tapping Shield of Iron-Bound Ash when a character faces a strike? You wouldn't tap the shield before strikes are assigned. My opinion is that the Bow is an activated ability that affects a chosen strike sequence.

The "regardless of the attack's normal capabilities and his status" is necessary because it allows Alatar to trump the attacker's decision making. Alatar may face a strike (any assigned strike of his choosing), and whether or not he is tapped, does not matter. If the opponent chooses defending characters, and Alatar is one of the defending characters chosen, he should be able to trump that attacker's decision. The Bow puts Alatar in control.

A few more items to consider from the URD discussing Strike Sequence (pg 20):
• If a character through an effect or ability faces
more than one strike from an attack, the character
faces a separate strike sequence for each one
[ME:TD].
• You must play card(s) that allow your character
to face multiple strikes before strikes are assigned
[CRF, CoE ].
• If a character is facing two or more strikes,
and the first strike kills the character, remaining
strikes are considered successful [CRF].
...
...
• All strikes of an attack must be assigned
before any are resolved [CRF].
• There is time between strike sequences to
take actions that are otherwise legal [CRF].

So lets discuss the first contentious point:
• You must play card(s) that allow your character
to face multiple strikes before strikes are assigned
[CRF, CoE ].
Bow of Alatar is already in play. Having more than one strike is part of "regardless of the attack's normal capabilities" statement.


Next point:
• All strikes of an attack must be assigned
before any are resolved [CRF].
• There is time between strike sequences to
take actions that are otherwise legal [CRF].
If we look a little further down in the rules at Tapping/Untapping a Card (pg 21):
Tapping a resource can only be done at a time when
you could otherwise play a resource event [CRF].
You are allowed to play resources (Risky Blow, Swift Strokes, etc.) during the start of the strike sequence, prior to rolling the dice. Tapping the Bow of Alatar should be no different in my opinion.


What I think this all boils down to is whether the Bow of Alatar affects an attack, or affects a strike.

Perhaps that is what a vote needs to be held on.

If it affects a strike, the Bow could be tapped at the start of any strike sequence. If the Bow affects an attack, then it needs to be tapped prior to assignment.

Consider this: Opponent plays Ambusher. Alatar taps the Bow. Opponent chooses Alatar and Ioreth to face the two strikes. If the Bow only affects an attack, then it is completely useless in this situation as Alatar is already chosen as a defender. "Regardless of the attack's normal capabilities" just got thrown out the window by the attacker choosing Alatar.
Zakath
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Moriquendi wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:18 pm What I think this all boils down to is whether the Bow of Alatar affects an attack, or affects a strike.

Perhaps that is what a vote needs to be held on.

If it affects a strike, the Bow could be tapped at the start of any strike sequence. If the Bow affects an attack, then it needs to be tapped prior to assignment.
I think that's a very succinct and accurate way of framing it. I am curious about where this will go - as I currently interpret the card, Bow is nice but not an automatic inclusion in a deck. I feel like your interpretation would make it a lot stronger.
Moriquendi wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:18 pm Consider this: Opponent plays Ambusher. Alatar taps the Bow. Opponent chooses Alatar and Ioreth to face the two strikes. If the Bow only affects an attack, then it is completely useless in this situation as Alatar is already chosen as a defender. "Regardless of the attack's normal capabilities" just got thrown out the window by the attacker choosing Alatar.
I would disagree here - by tapping the Bow you forced the attacker to give up the choice of assignment for one of the strikes. The opponent had to assign one to Alatar - effectively the Bow cut the effects of the 'attacker chooses defending characters' ability in half. It seems like you're assuming that the attacker secretly wanted Alatar to face a strike all along, but that need not have been the case. Lots of situations in strategic games like MECCG require you to act without perfect information on your opponent's motives - this scenario would just be one of them, but that doesn't mean Bow was useless.
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Moriquendi
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I would disagree here - by tapping the Bow you forced the attacker to give up the choice of assignment for one of the strikes. The opponent had to assign one to Alatar - effectively the Bow cut the effects of the 'attacker chooses defending characters' ability in half. It seems like you're assuming that the attacker secretly wanted Alatar to face a strike all along, but that need not have been the case. Lots of situations in strategic games like MECCG require you to act without perfect information on your opponent's motives - this scenario would just be one of them, but that doesn't mean Bow was useless.
Not necessarily. The opponent could still choose two other characters. At that point, who decides which strike Alatar faces? Does the "Attacker chooses defending characters" take precedence or does "Regardless of the attack's normal capabilities" take precedence?

I do see your point here and concede that the Bow is not completely useless, maybe only half-useless. Its useless enough that its not really needed in a Fallen Alatar deck though. I think part of the reason I feel like the Bow needs this power is due to Alatar's slower ramp-up in MP generation compared to other avatars. The only Fallen Alatar decks I've seen in competitive play barely even utilize his unique stage resources or abilities. In almost all decks, Fallen Radagast would be a better choice. Even with Alatar guaranteed to face a strike, there is no guarantee he will pass the combat roll and thus collect the Kill MP either.
Zakath
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Moriquendi wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:49 pm Not necessarily. The opponent could still choose two other characters. At that point, who decides which strike Alatar faces? Does the "Attacker chooses defending characters" take precedence or does "Regardless of the attack's normal capabilities" take precedence?
I think you can look to Alatar's own card for guidance on this.
CRF wrote: When Alatar uses his special ability he must face a strike. Alatar overrides all other effects pertaining to the assigning of strikes.
Alatar must teleport and declare he is facing a strike before any other strikes are assigned.
I think his Bow would work similarly, so I don't think the attacker could choose two characters that did not include Alatar. Once you tap the Bow while Alatar's company is facing an attack, the first strike from the attack gets assigned to Alatar, then strike assignment for any additional strikes proceeds normally. It should be clear that 'regardless of the attack's normal capabilities' is there to override things like 'attacker chooses defending characters'.

Looking at deck lists from Fallen Alatar decks of the past, it seems like his Bow is a pretty common inclusion, though not universal. In terms of competitiveness, I don't think it's wise to count on Kill MPs from the normal course of gameplay in any case, since your opponent can just stop playing hazard creatures against you if you demonstrate that you are killing them too easily. The big swing card for Alatar is The Great Hunt, which forces creatures to attack his company whether your opponent wants them to or not - but due to the sheer number of potential attacks, Alatar and his Bow alone would not usually be sufficient to play The Great Hunt successfully, even under your interpretation of the Bow's ability.
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Moriquendi
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CRF wrote: When Alatar uses his special ability he must face a strike. Alatar overrides all other effects pertaining to the assigning of strikes.
Alatar must teleport and declare he is facing a strike before any other strikes are assigned.
(Fallen) Alatar's card specifically states when his teleport ability must be enacted: When a hazard creature attacks one of your companies.

The Bow, by contrast, does contain state the same requirement. So I would argue this is actually a good case to show the difference in play of the two since both cards came from the same set.

... I don't think it's wise to count on Kill MPs from the normal course of gameplay in any case, since your opponent can just stop playing hazard creatures against you if you demonstrate that you are killing them too easily. The big swing card for Alatar is The Great Hunt, which forces creatures to attack his company whether your opponent wants them to or not - but due to the sheer number of potential attacks, Alatar and his Bow alone would not usually be sufficient to play The Great Hunt successfully, even under your interpretation of the Bow's ability.
100% absolutely agree with that first statement. Kill MP is far too luck-driven to be reliable, even with a heavy dose of modifiers in my experience. One crap roll can have a massive MP swing and having to send a wounded Alatar back to a haven to heal kills 2 turns. However, that somewhat skips over the gameplay of Alatar as he is supposed to be the Maiar of combat, the Sultan of steel, Destroyer of dragons, Master of Disaster, .... etc. [-me_aa-] [-me_aa-] [-me_aa-] (pew pew pew)

In a one-deck (short) game, The Great Hunt is your last turn home run swing, if you're able to make it that long and get the 12 stage points into play. ME:DM "The Hunt" is actually a fairly reliable mid to end game MP generator if you've equipped Alatar with a decent weapon (slayers, assassins, & other common 2MP creatures).
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Theo
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Nothing prevents Many Foes He Fought "choosing" from also occurring after initial strike assignment, prior to each strike being faced (via a Strike Sequence). Defender does not get to choose which strikes are faced directly, but they can indirectly because they choose the strike resolution order; they can't guarantee which strikes they face only if they want other characters to resolve their strikes after.

It is worth pointing out that neither it nor the Bow helps against attacks that state "Each character in the company must face one strike." The only way to resolve such attacks are by having each character... face a strike!
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Konrad Klar
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Moriquendi wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:18 pm When a status (untapped/tapped/wounded) and capabilities of attack (attacker/defender chooses defending characters) matters?
If the effect of tapping of Bow of Alatar would be so irrespective to the rules that decide about order of assigning a strikes, that it would be allowed to be declared after assigning a strikes, then how is meaning of "regardless of the attackʹs normal capabilities and his status"?

I'm not quite following you here. How is tapping the Bow any different than say, tapping Shield of Iron-Bound Ash when a character faces a strike? You wouldn't tap the shield before strikes are assigned. My opinion is that the Bow is an activated ability that affects a chosen strike sequence.

The "regardless of the attack's normal capabilities and his status" is necessary because it allows Alatar to trump the attacker's decision making. Alatar may face a strike (any assigned strike of his choosing), and whether or not he is tapped, does not matter. If the opponent chooses defending characters, and Alatar is one of the defending characters chosen, he should be able to trump that attacker's decision. The Bow puts Alatar in control.
CRF wrote:There are three levels of cards which reassign strikes. Alatar is the top level, and
overrides any other conflicting card which changes the assignment of strikes. Cards
which say they "always" or "in all cases" change the assignment of strikes are the next
level, and override any other conflicting effects except Alatar. Cards which say they
change the assignment of strikes "regardless of ..." certain factors are the third level,
and are overridden by all other effects from conflicting cards. If two effects on the
same level conflict, the resource overrides the hazard.
And look at Motionless Among the Slain for comparison.
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Theo
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Key words underlined, highlighting the problem with this CRF entry:
CRF wrote:There are three levels of cards which reassign strikes. Alatar is the top level, and
overrides any other conflicting card which changes the assignment of strikes. Cards
which say they "always" or "in all cases" change the assignment of strikes are the next
level, and override any other conflicting effects except Alatar. Cards which say they
change the assignment of strikes "regardless of ..." certain factors are the third level,
and are overridden by all other effects from conflicting cards. If two effects on the
same level conflict, the resource overrides the hazard.
Alatar does not reassign strikes, since his ability can only be triggered before strikes are initially assigned.
CRF wrote: Alatar must teleport and declare he is facing a strike before any other strikes are assigned.
And in fact, none of the other "always", "in all cases", "regardless of" change existing assignments of (reassign) strikes ; they change how strikes can be assigned. This includes (did I miss any?):

Noble Hound: "In all cases, Noble Hound must be assigned a strike before any strike can be
assigned to its controlling character."
One Foe to Breed A War: "Attacking player may always assign the first strike of any attack to this character."

Motionless Among the Slain: "You assign all strikes of the attack regardless of the attackʹs normal capabilities and character status."

-----

In contrast, cards that could be interpreted to allow strikes to be "reassigned":

Creature of an Older World: "assign your Ringwraithʹs strikes against a hero company as you choose."
Deftness of Agility: "A Dragon can assign a strike (with a ‐3 modification to its prowess) to a character already assigned to receive one of its strikes."

---

In contrast, there are cards that do not affect strike assignment, but affect only the facing of the strike (which character resolves the Strike Sequence):

Gold Chains in the Wind: "In all cases, the ally must face one of the attackʹs strikes."
Vanguard of Might: "The Balrog must face a strike from the attack, regardless of any conflicting effects."
Half an Eye Open: "Attacker may choose defending non‐Wizard character to face the first strike assigned from the attack."
Many Foes He Fought: "If defender chooses a warrior to be the target of a strike from an attack, that character may choose to face any number of the strikes from that attack."
Bow of Alatar: "face a strike from an attack against his company regardless of the attackʹs normal capabilities and his status."

I suppose these could also be interpreted as "reassigning" a strike, but my belief is that they may do so outside of the strike assignment portion of Combat resolution. If "face a strike" were the same as "assign a strike", the distinction of Half an Eye Open would be pointless, and the numerous cards that say things like "-1 when not tapping to face(assign?) a strike" would be nonsense.
Last edited by Theo on Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Konrad Klar
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Or just by "reassigning" they mean a changing an order of assigning.
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