Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind.

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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the Jabberwock
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Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind.

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:38 am

Fallen-wizards are prohibited by rule to play characters with greater than a 5 mind.
CRF - Fallen-wizard wrote: Fallen-wizards may not play characters with more than five mind, but if they have one in play the character is not discarded.
Fallen-wizards can have a character with more than five mind, they just can't start with one or play one.
I think the intent here was to say "Fallen-wizards can have and use a character with more than five mind, they just can't start with one or play one."

I propose the following rules erratum:
CRF - Fallen-wizard wrote: Fallen-wizards may not play characters with more than five mind, but if they have one in play the character is not discarded.
Fallen-wizards can have and use a character with more than five mind, they just can't start with one or play one.
(changes in bold)

Reference Topic: https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... =16&t=3721

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind.

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:47 am

I would prefer:
"Fallen-wizards may not play under his control characters with more than five mind, but if they have one in play the character is not discarded."

Fallen-wizard player should not be restricted from playing a character with any mind according to Ride Against the Enemy.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Re: Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind.

Post by CDavis7M » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:18 pm

Also, I believe that it is possible for a FW player to play 6+ mind agent characters as hazard agents. Is that correct? If so, am i right in thinking that a "hazard agent" would not be a "character" under the 5-mind-limit rule?

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Re: Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind.

Post by Theo » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:42 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:18 pm
Also, I believe that it is possible for a FW player to play 6+ mind agent characters as hazard agents. Is that correct? If so, am i right in thinking that a "hazard agent" would not be a "character" under the 5-mind-limit rule?
Correct.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:47 am
I would prefer:
"Fallen-wizards may not play under his control characters with more than five mind, but if they have one in play the character is not discarded."

Fallen-wizard player should not be restricted from playing a character with any mind according to Ride Against the Enemy.
I think Fallen-wizard players should absolutely be restricted from playing a character with more mind than they can normally bring into play with Ride Against the Enemy.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!
Double Standards.

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Re: Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind.

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:40 pm

Theo wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:42 pm
I think Fallen-wizard players should absolutely be restricted from playing a character with more mind than they can normally bring into play with Ride Against the Enemy.
Hero player may play Nazgûl, minion player may play Maia. Hazards do not represent the forces loyal to a player.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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the Jabberwock
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Re: Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind.

Post by the Jabberwock » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:41 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:47 am
I would prefer:
"Fallen-wizards may not play under his control characters with more than five mind, but if they have one in play the character is not discarded."

Fallen-wizard player should not be restricted from playing a character with any mind according to Ride Against the Enemy.
This doesn't solve the current problem though of whether or not a FW may USE a character with greater than 5 mind once they are in play.

Or are you saying that what I proposed here is okay:
CRF - Fallen-wizard wrote: Fallen-wizards can have and use a character with more than five mind, they just can't start with one or play one.
And that you would like to ADD this:
CRF - Fallen-wizard wrote: Fallen-wizards may not play under their control characters with more than five mind, but if they have one in play the character is not discarded.

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Re: Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind.

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:34 am

I think that only first sentence of your proposal should be replaced by mine.

Result would be:

"Fallen-wizards may not play under his control characters with more than five mind, but if they have one in play the character is not discarded.
Fallen-wizards can have and use a character with more than five mind, they just can't start with one or play one."
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Re: Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind.

Post by CDavis7M » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:05 pm

Concepts to capture in the rule:
1. FW may not use (play?) characters with greater than 5-mind (of course, Thrall overrides this rule)
2. FW may still use characters if their mind goes over 5 via effects of the game.
3. Agents do not count. You can use 5<mind agents.
4. (Contended) Characters with over 5 mind can be played as non-characters via hazards like Ride Against the Enemy

Re point 4, I think - if a FW includes a 6-mind character in their deck (or even a character of greater mind?), I think they should be able to play it with Ride Against the Enemy. As Konrad says, the Hazards do not represent the Avatar.

I think this rules errata is more clear:
"Fallen-wizards may not play characters with more than five mind as characters. , but if they have one in play the character is not discarded.
Fallen-wizards can have and use a character with more than five mind, they just can't start with one or play one."
The phase "under his control" is a little confusing because agents and hazards (which would be allowed for FW) should be under one players "control."

Also, the discussion of "discarding" is superfluous and actually implies a rule that does not exist (ie, that the character should be discarded by some other rule, but this rule overrides that rule). It appears that the ruling regarding "not discarding" was in response to a question that mentioned discarding (ie, discarding wasn't mentioned in the rules or by an official ruling, it is merely part of a question). The statement: "but if they have one in play the character is not discarded" is a clarification/ruling and not errata.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind.

Post by Theo » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:17 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:40 pm
Theo wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:42 pm
I think Fallen-wizard players should absolutely be restricted from playing a character with more mind than they can normally bring into play with Ride Against the Enemy.
Hero player may play Nazgûl, minion player may play Maia. Hazards do not represent the forces loyal to a player.
I'm not aware of any Nazgul or Maia characters. I agree that hazards do not generally represent the forces loyal to a player, but some do. Anyway, beyond theme, my main point was just that there is no hint of exceptions made in the original rules based on how characters are played. The better argument for Ride Against the Enemy is that it does not play the character. :roll:
--
CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:05 pm
1. FW may not use (play?) characters with greater than 5-mind (of course, certain cards like Thrall and Open to the Summons override this rule)
Open to the Summons does not allow FW to play characters with more than 5 mind. The reduction to mind does not occur until after the character is in play.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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Double Standards.

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Re: Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind.

Post by CDavis7M » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:04 pm

You're right. I was mistaken but had only ever played 5-mind agents with it.

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Re: Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind.

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:09 am

Theo wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:17 pm
The better argument for Ride Against the Enemy is that it does not play the character. :roll:
The card itself requires an errata. Because if character card would be merely revealed (not played) with it, then nothing would prevent its player from revealing a copy/manifestation of unique card already in play.
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Re: Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind.

Post by Theo » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:46 pm

Any character could be revealed, but then the attack effect for a duplicate unique could not be generated.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!
Double Standards.

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Re: Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind.

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:37 am

Theo wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:46 pm
Any character could be revealed, but then the attack effect for a duplicate unique could not be generated.
Good.
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Re: Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind.

Post by rezwits » Sun May 12, 2019 5:53 am

CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:05 pm
Concepts to capture in the rule:
1. FW may not use (play?) characters with greater than 5-mind (of course, Thrall overrides this rule)
2. FW may still use characters if their mind goes over 5 via effects of the game.
3. Agents do not count. You can use 5<mind agents.
4. (Contended) Characters with over 5 mind can be played as non-characters via hazards like Ride Against the Enemy
...
To cleanup when going over this definitely take these into consideration:

1. FW may not put into play a character with greater than 5-mind (of course, Thrall overrides this rule)
2. FW may control any character in play they are controlling with G.I. or a characters D.I. (or any other effect, that allows control of a character)
3. Agents do not count. You can use >5 mind agents, as Hazard Agents.
4. Any Character (Avatar limitations still apply) may be included in a FW player's deck, for possible use via an effect of the game or card.

Jabberwock, might hammer at this later ;)
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind.

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:12 am

Thanks for the contributions guys.

FYI, there is also a NetRep ruling that supports the idea that FW's may use characters with >5 mind once in play:
NetRep Rulings Digest #41
Am I allowed to discard a Thrall of the Voice on a 6-mind character
during my organization phase (to lower my SP in the face of looming
badness), or would that be considered "playing" a 6-minder?
*** The character is already in play, so as long as you are not
otherwise restricted from discarding Thrall of the Voice, you may do so
in this case.

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