RUSE

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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the Jabberwock
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RUSE

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:29 pm

I believe that this card is meant to require a diplomat in the company (and only a diplomat) to use the first ability, and require a scout in the company (and only a scout) to use the second ability.

However, the wording "Diplomat only. Scout only." at the top of the text box may lead some to question whether or not both skills must be present in the company in order to play this card.

I propose the following clarification be issued:
Ruse -
Requires either a diplomat or a scout in the company.
Reference Topics: None

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Sam.Gamdschie
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Re: RUSE

Post by Sam.Gamdschie » Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:32 pm

Would it be more clear to change it in the following way:
Diplomat only, or Scout only if played with the alternative option.
Just to make it even more precise what is required for which option.
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Re: RUSE

Post by rezwits » Sun May 12, 2019 5:29 am

Sam.Gamdschie wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:32 pm
Would it be more clear to change it in the following way:
Diplomat only, or Scout only if played with the alternative option.
Just to make it even more precise what is required for which option.
Why not just:

Diplomat only, or Scout only if alternatively played.

but agreed with this line of thinking
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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CDavis7M
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Re: RUSE

Post by CDavis7M » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:49 pm

rezwits wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:29 am
Why not just:

Diplomat only, or Scout only if alternatively played.

but agreed with this line of thinking
I agree with some ruling/errata like this.

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Theo
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Re: RUSE

Post by Theo » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:54 am

the Jabberwock wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:29 pm
However, the wording "Diplomat only. Scout only." at the top of the text box may lead some to question whether or not both skills must be present in the company in order to play this card.
I'm not sure what the argument against this is.
CRF Skill Cards wrote:"(Foo) only" cards can only be played by characters with the (foo) skill.
This means each "[skill] only" statement creates a requirement on the card. Literally, Ruse can only be played by characters with the diplomat skill AND Ruse can only be played by characters with the scout skill.

---

Your proposed errata "clarification" does not make it clear whether the card itself is a "card requiring scout skill" for the purposes of e.g. Searching Eye. I presume you'd say that is isn't, since it would instead become a "card requiring diplomat or scout skill"?

---

P.S. disjunctive statements do not strictly imply negation of their conjunctive counterparts; your proposal does not address "Does Ruse NOT require a scout AND a diplomat?" Nitpicking.
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Re: RUSE

Post by CDavis7M » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:47 pm

Theo wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:54 am
CRF Skill Cards wrote:"(Foo) only" cards can only be played by characters with the (foo) skill.
This means each "[skill] only" statement creates a requirement on the card. Literally, Ruse can only be played by characters with the diplomat skill AND Ruse can only be played by characters with the scout skill.
I disagree. The CRF does not state such a requirement. The MELE rules section/glossary on Keywords clearly indicates that keywords have no inherent requirements. The CRF is not inconsistent with the MELE rules on on keywords. This statement in the CRF is not creating any new rules or requirements.

The keywords "Diplomat only" and "Scout only" are merely indicators that their cards contain a condition that requires the corresponding skill (see the conditions in bold for a Diplomat or alternatively a Scout printed on Ruse). Keywords themselves do not create any requirements but are merely referred to by the rules (Unique, Corruption, Leader, etc.) and/or other cards (Sage only, etc.):
MELE - The Cards and Decks wrote:KEYWORDS
Several types of cards are referred to by the keyword included in the first few words of a card’s text.
For example, the text of a “spirit-magic” card starts with ‘Magic. Spirit-magic’; the text of a “wolf” card
starts with ‘Wolves’; the text of a “Palantír” starts with ‘Unique. Palantír’.
Keywords do not necessarily carry any rules (though some do, like ‘Unique’ and ‘Corruption’).
Keywords are used to determine if an effect in the game affects a card
MELE Glossary" wrote:Keyword: An italicized word in a card’s text box typically stood off with a period. Keywords carry no
inherent rules, but rather are used as card identifiers
when determining if another card affects them.
Many keywords do have rules accompanying them, however, like ‘Unique’ and ‘corruption’. Any
words given in a card’s classification line are also keywords.
The CRF entry mentioning "foo" is not inconsistent with the rules on keywords above. This CRF entry is not creating a new requirement. It is just restating the rules. A card that includes the keyword "foo only" indicates that the card can only be played by charters with the foo skill. Of course this is correct.
"(Foo) only" cards can only be played by characters with the (foo) skill.
Ruse includes the two keywords: "Diplomat only" and "Scout only." These keywords do not create any requirements alone (this is the confusion in the original post), they merely serve as indicators of the requirements provided by the text of the card itself. There is no need for a company to contain both a Diplomat and a Scout. The only requirements are those printed on the cards (see the text in bold on Ruse) and those found in the rules. Both keywords are printed on Ruse so that other cards referring to Diplomat/Scout only cards can refer to these keywords.

Searching Eye was mentioned. What a funny card. Instead of referring to a keyword "Scout only", it states "a card that required scout skill to play," Presumably those cards would state "scout only," indicating as such... Ruse is a Scout only card. It is a card including a condition requiring a scout. But Ruse is not a card that requires the scout skill to play as it can be played by a Diplomat. However, if Ruse was played using the Scout requirement, then I think Searching Eye would be able cancel it. If Searching Eye mentioned Scout Only instead, then presumably it could cancel Ruse even if a Diplomat played the card.

I think the card itself is fine (no errata needed) but after seeing the difference in interpretation here, a clarification would help.
Possible Clarification wrote:As stated in the MELE rules, keywords like "diplomat only" and "scout only" carry no inherent rules, but rather are used as card identifiers when determining if another card affects them.

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Theo
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Re: RUSE

Post by Theo » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:15 am

Please explain this apparent flaw in your reasoning:

* Take the literal CRF.
* Take a card that has "Diplomat only" written on it.
* CRF literally says that such a card can only be played by a character with the Diplomat skill.
...additionally...
* Take a card that has "Scout only" written on it.
* CRF literally says that such a card can only be played by a character with the Scout skill.
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:47 pm
These keywords do not create any requirements alone (this is the confusion in the original post), they merely serve as indicators of the requirements provided by the text of the card itself.
If this were the case, then you are saying that the CRF is wrong. Ruse as written has both the "Diplomat only" text and the "Scout only" text as part of its first resolution option. If Ruse only required a Diplomat to play it's first resolution choice, then it can not contain the phrase "Scout only" or it will contradict the CRF skill rule. (And because of CRF Active Condition rules, vice versa for the second choice.)
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Re: RUSE

Post by CDavis7M » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:18 am

Again, you can't see the forest for the trees. I already explained. Keywords like "Diplomat only" have no inherent requirement. The statement in the CRF regarding "foo" cards does not change this. It is not an Erratum and is not labeled as such. The CRF statement should be read in a way that is consistent with the existing rules.

"(Foo) only" cards can only be played by characters with the (foo) skill" BECAUSE those cards include additional text BEYOND "Foo only" that requires such skills. The "Foo only" keyword is merely an indicator that later on in the card's text there will be a requirement for "foo" skills.

I get that it is difficult for a player to memorize the entire rule book as background context for a single statement in the CRF, but the context is, and the CRF statement is consistent with that context.

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Re: RUSE

Post by Theo » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:35 am

"can only be played by" <-- Not a phrase used to indicate later text which may or may not be relevant, in my opinion.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: RUSE

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:23 pm

The issue can be resolved by a larger emendation.

Diplomat only. Playable on a untapped diplomat in a covert company facing an attack. Tap the diplomat. The attack is canceled.

Alternatively, scout only. Playable on a scout facing an attack. No strikes of the attack may be assigned to the scout.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: RUSE

Post by CDavis7M » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:22 am

Looking into it more it seems like keywords were used pretty loosely, especially in The Wizards. Some cards had skill-based conditions but lacked the appropriate keyword. Other cards had the keyword but lacked any conditions or effects requiring that skill. This improved over time and by MELE, must cards had keywords and corresponding text. But there were still some issues.

Given the inconsistency in keyword usage, the discrepancy between the keyword rules, keyword usage, and the CRF clarification, some changes are in order.

1. The "Foo only" statement should be made errata, updated with better language, and moved to that section of the CRF to firmly set requirements on the older and overlooked skill only cards (e.g., Lordly Presence, etc.). This would provide a specific (actual) rule for such keywords. This probably fits best in the Keyword section.

Also, the existing CRF "Foo" skill card clarification doesn't mention skill effects, like those for warriors on certain weapons.

Though, I don't think it's worth it to add "Skill Only" text to the cards that are missing it. (e.g., Ford)

2. Potentially amend Ruse. It seems like Spies Feared is the closest example to copy to achieve the presumably intended result. Ruse could say "Diplomat or Scout Only."




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CDavis7M
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Re: RUSE

Post by CDavis7M » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:42 am

I was wondering what the reasoning was for the CRF statement "<Foo> only" cards can only be played by characters with the <foo> skill."

As mentioned before, many cards, especially later cards, include conditions and effects that require a character to have a certain skill, and they also include the "(Skill) only" keyword. However, some cards, especially earlier cards, say "(Skill") only" without having conditions or effects that require that skill. Examples of METW cards having this issue are Lordly Presence, New Friendship, Old Friendship, and more.

This "foo" statement appears in CRF 9 (Dec. 5, 97) in the "Rulings by Term" section and it is not marked as new/changed. This statement does not appear in CRF 7 (Sept 28, 97) . It appears that this statement was new in CRF 8 (Nov 6, 97), which is missing to the world. Upon thorough search, this statement was was added as a "New MECCG Rulings" on October 2, 1997:

Code: Select all

Hey y'all
The question of Against the Shadow at Nationals came up on the mailing
list.  To clarify, MEATS will *not* be allowed at Nationals this year.
All rulings in version 7 of the offical Collected Rulings File will
be used, along with the rulings below.  CRF 7 will be available on
the Web later today, the hurl will be www.cstone.net/~ichabod/metwcrf.html.

New MECCG Rulings, 10/2/97

Agents

   Agents may not move to any version of a hero Haven.

Influence

   General influence is changed immediately, with a minimum of 0 free
general influence.

Modes

   When one mode effect is applied to a Ringwraith, all other cards that
are applying a mode effect to that Ringwraith are discarded.

New Friendship

   The influence bonus from New Friendship only applies to the diplomat,
but the corruption check bonus applies to any character in the diplomatąs
company.

Old Friendship

   The influence bonus from Old Friendship only applies to the diplomat,
but the corruption check bonus applies to any character in the diplomatąs
company.

Sideboard

   You may have any Wizards in your sideboard.  You may only have three
copies of one Wizard, and one copy of each other Wizard, in your play deck
and sideboard combined.

Skill Cards

   ł<Foo> only˛ cards may only be played by a character with the <foo>
skill.

-------             "The Crossing-guard of Mordor"            -------
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien                http://www.cstone.net/~ichabod
ich...@cstone.net                             Me:CCG Official Netrep
"It's for discipline that the Lord scourges his worshippers" Jdt 8:17
-- Check out my Shadowfist, INWO, and MECCG traders on my web page --
Note that Digest 3 (the first posted to the newsgroup) was released on Nov 3, 1997. Digests 4 and 5 are missing to the world. Digest 6 was released Nov 10, 1997. So there is the potential that the reasoning for the statement was in Digest 4 or 5 and is lost as well. But besides that possibility, it looks like this "New Ruling" may be the source/reasoning on this CRF statement. From the New Rulings, it appears that the "foo" statement in the CRF was made to address these old cards that were unclear (i.e., New/Old Friendship) and inconsistent with the rule on Keywords (e.g., "skill only" keywords do not carry any inherent requirements). The "foo" CRF statement was not directed cards at cards like Ruse, which have two alternative conditions that both require a character with a single particular skill. Furthermore, the CRF statement regarding Ruse implies that Scout skill is enough.
If Ruse is played by a scout who is the only character in the company, the attack has no effect. If there is a creature card it is discarded. The attack is considered faced but not canceled.
And all of the Card of the Day statements indicate that Ruse can be played by either Scouts or Diplomats. One mentions how Perchen is handy because he can use both effects.

My conclusion is that the key word rules, the various rulings, and the general play of the card by people do not require a character to be both a Diplomat.

Beyond this post here, there is nothing in all of MECCG history that would indicate that Ruse requires a character to be both a Diplomat AND a Scout.

Still, a clarification would be helpful.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: RUSE

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:11 am

Ruse is example of card that can be played as (probably) intended only thanks to auto-correction made by players.
Check made, by example, by computer program would indicate that the card requires both skills for any use.

I would vote gladly for:
Bandobras Took wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:23 pm
Diplomat only. Playable on a untapped diplomat in a covert company facing an attack. Tap the diplomat. The attack is canceled.

Alternatively, scout only. Playable on a scout facing an attack. No strikes of the attack may be assigned to the scout.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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CDavis7M
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Re: RUSE

Post by CDavis7M » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:28 am

I'd be OK with Brandobra's suggestion too. But typically keywords are the first words in the card text.
KEYWORDS
Several types of cards are referred to by the keyword included in the first few words of a card’s text.
For example, the text of a “spirit-magic” card starts with ‘Magic. Spirit-magic’; the text of a “wolf” card
starts with ‘Wolves’; the text of a “Palantír” starts with ‘Unique. Palantír’.
MECCG already has keywords that use "or", like in Spies Feared (Scout or Ranger only. Playable on a...) . I'd prefer to go with "Diplomat or Scout Only" for consistency with the Keyword description and those other cards (maybe its just Spies Feared).
(Proposed) Card Errata and Rulings - Ruse (additions shown with underlining) wrote:
  • Card Erratum: Change "Diplomat only. Scout only." to "Diplomat or Scout only."
  • Ruse requires a character that is a Diplomat for the first effect, or a character that is a Scout for the alternative effect. Ruse does not require a character that is both a Diplomat and a Scout. "Keywords carry no inherent rules" (MELE Rulesbook, p. 12 and 89).
  • If Ruse is played by a scout who is the only character in the company, the attack has no effect. If there is a creature card it is discarded. The attack is considered faced but not canceled

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Theo
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Re: RUSE

Post by Theo » Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:44 am

CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:42 am
... inconsistent with the rule on Keywords (e.g., "skill only" keywords do not carry any inherent requirements).
Actual rule:
MELE wrote:Keywords do not necessarily carry any rules (though some do, like ‘Unique’ and ‘Corruption’).
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!
Double Standards.

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