MPs for Trophies

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Theo
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MPs for Trophies

Post by Theo » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:33 am

CRF wrote:Creatures whose marshalling points are listed with an * give marshalling points while used as trophies.
This seems misleading for Fallen Wizard players post full orc/troll citizenship status. I propose the following clarifying amendment:

"When used as trophies, creatures that could have been placed in your marshalling point pile give marshalling points as though they had been placed in your marshalling point pile."
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the Jabberwock
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Re: MPs for Trophies

Post by the Jabberwock » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:32 am

I'm unclear on what the problem is. Is the issue that a trophy taken for a Fallen-wizard player's orc/troll should only be worth 1 MP instead of full kill points as listed on the card? If so, I don't think the CRF quoted over-rides the MP rules for Fallen-wizards as outlined in the White Hand rulebook.

But it seems maybe the issue is something else. Please clarify.

An aside, creatures that will not give a player kill points, may still be placed in your marshalling point pile (worth 0 points) when the creature is defeated, correct?

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Theo
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Re: MPs for Trophies

Post by Theo » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:48 am

There are two issues with the rules as written:
They do not reward MP (to Fallen Wizard) for non-* trophy.
They always reward MP (to Fallen Wizard) for * trophy.

I believe the intent of the CRF entry is to establish that trophies should not take away from your normal marshalling point accumulations (unless the character loses the trophy or is themselves is lost and taking the trophy with them).
Last edited by Theo on Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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the Jabberwock
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Re: MPs for Trophies

Post by the Jabberwock » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:02 am

Theo wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:48 am
I believe the intent of the CRF entry is to establish that trophies should not take away from your normal marshalling point accumulations (unless the character loses the trophy or is themselves is lost and taking the trophy with them).
I agree. Although I seem to recall there is also a provision that allows the player to still claim the marshalling points of a trophy if the bearing character is removed from play or discarded (I could be wrong).

Theo wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:48 am
There are two issues with the rules as written:
They do not reward MP (to Fallen Wizard) for non-* trophy.
They always reward MP (to Fallen Wizard) for * trophy.
Will you please quote the rules you are referencing? Thanks

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Theo
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Re: MPs for Trophies

Post by Theo » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:08 am

the Jabberwock wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:32 am
An aside, creatures that will not give a player kill points, may still be placed in your marshalling point pile (worth 0 points) when the creature is defeated, correct?
MELE wrote:If you defeat a creature that does not have an * next to its marshalling points, place the card in your out-of-play pile. You do not receive marshalling points for eliminating it.
Subtle difference.
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Theo
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Re: MPs for Trophies

Post by Theo » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:16 am

the Jabberwock wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:02 am
Although I seem to recall there is also a provision that allows the player to still claim the marshalling points of a trophy if the bearing character is removed from play or discarded (I could be wrong).
Quite right; I was confusing the CRF entry saying that they could be stolen by Thieves. True, but if so they are then placed in the MP pile. Corrected above.
the Jabberwock wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:02 am
Theo wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:48 am
There are two issues with the rules as written:
They do not reward MP (to Fallen Wizard) for non-* trophy.
They always reward MP (to Fallen Wizard) for * trophy.
Will you please quote the rules you are referencing? Thanks
One could argue that the original post CRF reference is the only provision for trophies, as trophies, being worth Marshalling Points. But I could also see this going the other way. Regardless, the CRF could be interpreted to overrule Fallen Wizards not normally receiving * points.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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the Jabberwock
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Re: MPs for Trophies

Post by the Jabberwock » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:04 am

Theo wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:16 am
One could argue that the original post CRF reference is the only provision for trophies, as trophies, being worth Marshalling Points. But I could also see this going the other way.
I see. I would argue that "Creatures whose marshalling points are listed with an * give marshalling points while used as trophies" does not necessarily mean "Creatures whose marshalling points are not listed with an * do not give marshalling points while used as trophies."

However, after passage of CoE Erratum #31 https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 103&t=3532, I would argue that a Fallen-wizard player who controls a company of Orc/Trolls does receive MPs for * hazard creatures defeated by that company (trophy or not) and they do not receive MPs for non-* hazard creatures defeated by that company.
The White Hand Rulebook:
When you play a Fallen-wizard, assume that your Fallen-wizard is a METW “Wizard”. All of the normal
METW rules apply except for the specific exceptions outlined in these rules.
CoE Erratum #31 is a specific exception to this rule regarding treating your Fallen-wizard as a METW Wizard (for the purposes of Orcs & Trolls and how they are handled... to include kill points)

So my opinion is that Erratum 31, not the CRF, overrules FW not normally receiving * points. And the CRF continues to clarify points for trophies.

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Theo
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Re: MPs for Trophies

Post by Theo » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:23 am

I think you are confusing Orc and Troll characters/companies rules and player scoring rules. CoE Erratum #31 does not change that a player receives MP or not based on his alignment (and, in my opinion, this is the way it should be). CoE Erratum #31 no more overrules that Fallen Wizards get full points for items borne by Orcs/Troll, or other such unrelated rules. The CRF rule speaks directly to scoring, and could be construed as breaking normal alignment rules. You might like that, but I don't, and I'd like to vote to fix this CRF rule that was created long before the CoE Erratum #31 context.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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the Jabberwock
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Re: MPs for Trophies

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:34 pm

Theo wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:23 am
I think you are confusing Orc and Troll characters/companies rules and player scoring rules.
You are right, my apologies. After going back and carefully re-reading CoE Erratum # 31, the MELE Rulebook, and the MEWH Rulebook, I rescind my previous opinion.

I agree that clarifying this point is worthwhile.

Wording of the rules aside for a moment and speaking thematically:
While it seems logical to me that an overt Orc and Troll company under the allegiance of a Fallen-wizard would net Kill Points for their Fallen-wizard when defeating asterisk creatures (don't you think Saruman was empowered and satisfied when his Uruk-hai slaughtered Elves and Men?), I can also understand the counter-argument that a Fallen-wizard, generally speaking, is going to be rewarded and get empowerment out of somewhat different tactics and methods than a Ringwraith/Sauron/Balrog might. So perhaps FWs, in general, would not be outwardly in favor (and empowered by) some of the same methods used by minion players.

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Re: MPs for Trophies

Post by Theo » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:51 am

As I posted here, FW orcs and trolls still cannot take trophies under CoE Erratum #31. Under that understanding, consider this proposal superfluous. However, I still think this is a worthy amendment for when/if FW orcs and trolls are given legal provision to take trophies, as seemed to be the intent of CoE Erratum #31 and CRF Trophies rulings.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: MPs for Trophies

Post by Bandobras Took » Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:58 pm

And, furthermore:
A Merrier World

Playable if you have more than 7 stage points. Hazards your companies defeat (for which you otherwise get 1 MP) are each worth full kill marshalling points. Cannot be duplicated by a given player.
Shameful Deeds

Playable if you are not Alatar and have more than 6 stage points. Hazards with an asterisk [*] attack your companies normally, not as detainment. Such hazards your companies defeat while this card is in play give you full kill marshalling points. You receive no kill marshalling points from other hazards if this card is in play. Cannot be duplicated by a given player.
Stage Resources are generally held to override the normal rules on MPs, as well.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Bandobras Took
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Re: MPs for Trophies

Post by Bandobras Took » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:03 pm

Solved: The Balrog Rules Summary makes the Trophy rules of universal application for Orc/Troll characters (no mention of hero/minion companies, no bullets), and that the benefits are based on the MP values printed on the card, regardless of the presence or lack of a * or the actual score received. This would seem to be the basis for decisions going forward.
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Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Bandobras Took
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Re: MPs for Trophies

Post by Bandobras Took » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:03 pm

I only have the image; it was easier than typing it out. :)
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Theo
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Re: MPs for Trophies

Post by Theo » Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:19 am

In my opinion, summaries are not a solid basis for rule revision. If they contained all of the details, there would be no reason to call them summaries.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!
Double Standards.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: MPs for Trophies

Post by Bandobras Took » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:48 pm

In the case of the last published rules, where the alterations conveniently cover every single problem that's arisen from the previous rules, I'm inclined to take their word for it.

If they hadn't written about Trophies, we'd be stuck (just like they didn't write about One Ring victories, Ringwraith movement limitations, FWs at all, etc.), but since they did, we can take the summary as, at the very least, a statement of intent. All that's needed is:

1) To actually have the Balrog Rules Summary publicly available somewhere, and
2) To clarify that the Balrog rules for trophies are the ones players should follow.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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