WITHDRAWN - Hidden Knife

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Khamul the Easterling
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This card is
playable on any face up agent during your site phase
My proposal is to remove "during your site phase". Especially this requirement greatly limits playability of the card, imo, as the current version does, for instance, not even allow a player to attack the agent before the agent himself can attack during the site phase. Even without the site phase limitation the card's use wouldn't be too powerful.
Last edited by Khamul the Easterling on Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bandobras Took
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You only have to worry about the agent attack if you're at the agent's site.

You don't have to be.

The ability to get an extra card out of your hand during the site phase, as well as potentially eliminating an agent, is actually pretty strong. I'm not sure this one is necessary.
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CDavis7M
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Khamul the Easterling wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:50 pm as the current version does, for instance, not even allow a player to attack the agent before the agent himself can attack during the site phase.
Is this statement correct?

Here is the agent attack rule from Dark Minions and a relevant ruling from Rules Digest 119 (maybe there are more rulings?):
Dark Minions wrote:This attack is declared and enacted at the start of the site phase immediately following any automaticattack. If face-down, turn the agent face-up.
From: Martin Toggweiler <mtogg...@compuserve.com>
>1) If the agent is revealed at the site when a company enters the site, can Hidden Knife be played and resolve before the agent attacks the company?

Yes. Right after you face the automatic-attack.

>If not, and the agent is already revealed at the beginning of the site phase, could HK be played before the company enters the site?

No. Nothing can be played before you enter the site.

>If an agent is revealed at a site where the player has no company, HK can still be played on the agent, right?

Yes.

>Since the agent is attacked as if it were a character, the agent gets no boost for being at a homesite or for just having been revealed, right?
Right.


So once the automatic attack(s) is finished, resources can now be played, meaning that Hidden Knife can be played in response to the Agent's attack.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:47 pm >1) If the agent is revealed at the site when a company enters the site, can Hidden Knife be played and resolve before the agent attacks the company?

Yes. Right after you face the automatic-attack.
I agree.
Hidden Knife is not company's activity. So it even can be played before company enters a site.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:47 pm So once the automatic attack(s) is finished, resources can now be played, meaning that Hidden Knife can be played in response to the Agent's attack.
I disagree. Action potentially causing immediate attack cannot be declared in response.
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Khamul the Easterling
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:59 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:47 pm >1) If the agent is revealed at the site when a company enters the site, can Hidden Knife be played and resolve before the agent attacks the company?

Yes. Right after you face the automatic-attack.
I agree.
Hidden Knife is not company's activity. So it even can be played before company enters a site.
Right, so essentially Hidden knife can be played to cause the attacking effect on the agent before the agent attacks the company, right?
That wasn't clear to me before, so I'll withdraw this proposal.
Thanks for your help!
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Konrad Klar
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Khamul the Easterling wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:16 pm Right, so essentially Hidden knife can be played to cause the attacking effect on the agent before the agent attacks the company, right?
Right.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad, thanks for your response. I looked into this more and now I just have more questions. Would you mind helping me understand this?
Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:59 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:47 pm >1) If the agent is revealed at the site when a company enters the site, can Hidden Knife be played and resolve before the agent attacks the company?

Yes. Right after you face the automatic-attack.
I agree.
Hidden Knife is not company's activity. So it even can be played before company enters a site.
Konrad, are you referring to this part of the CRF regarding the Site Phase when you say that "Hidden Knife is not company's action"?
A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an automatic-attack. (emphasis added)
So, resources that are not played by a company may be played without facing the automatic-attack even if it doesn't affect the attack. This seems consistent with the MELE rules regarding "Resource Cards, Non-Event" which state:
A faction card, ally card, or item card must be played during your site phase and requires an untapped character and an untapped site. In addition, the company must face any automatic-attacks located at the same site before such a card can be played. Resource events do not generally require an untapped site nor that the automatic attack be faced. This may vary based upon specific card text. (Emphasis added).
However, this seems to contradict this ruling in Digest 119:
... could HK be played before the company enters the site?

No. Nothing can be played before you enter the site. (Emphasis added)
Why would Digest 119 rule this way given the that the MELE rules (and presumably the CRF above) state that EVENTS do no require the automatic attack to be faced? This Digest doesn't appear to be setting precedent but I am not sure what the precedent is.
Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:59 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:47 pm So once the automatic attack(s) is finished, resources can now be played, meaning that Hidden Knife can be played in response to the Agent's attack.
I disagree. Action potentially causing immediate attack cannot be declared in response.
I am not sure what you mean by this. Is there a rule you are referring to?
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:09 pm Konrad, are you referring to this part of the CRF regarding the Site Phase when you say that "Hidden Knife is not company's action"?

A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an automatic-attack. (emphasis added)
Yes.

I do not even try to be compliant with NetRep rulings.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:09 pm I am not sure what you mean by this. Is there a rule you are referring to?
CRF wrote:Annotation 15: An attack must be the first declared action in a chain of effects, i.e., a
creature card may not be played in response to another card in the same chain of
effects. Revealing an on-guard creature is an exception. In order to cancel an attack or
to directly affect an attack, the character doing so must be in the company facing the
attack. Note that the region/site type a hazard creature was keyed to can be affected
otherwise. Cards only modify attacks if they say they specifically mention attacks.
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CDavis7M
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Thanks Konrad!
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Bandobras Took
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:09 pmWhy would Digest 119 rule this way given the that the MELE rules (and presumably the CRF above) state that EVENTS do no require the automatic attack to be faced?
Careful, the last time I asked questions like that, whole forums got hidden. :lol:
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
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CDavis7M
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Bandobras Took wrote:
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:09 pmWhy would Digest 119 rule this way given the that the MELE rules (and presumably the CRF above) state that EVENTS do no require the automatic attack to be faced?
Careful, the last time I asked questions like that, whole forums got hidden. Image
But now it's like Survivor and you have to get voted off?

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