Open to the Summons

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Theo
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Theo »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:33 am
If short-event allows for taking some action outside a time of its execution it specifies duration. A Chance Meeting does not specify.
A Chance Meeting as written does not specify allowing any action, so it rightly does not specify a duration for the lack of an action; it modifies the rules for an existing type of action. But this point has already been butchered by the vote errata to align with the player handbook.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Bandobras Took »

@ Konrad: I'm not quite sure what argument you're making. It would still need to be determined whether Bounty is creating a possibility or modifying an existing one. (Of course, the site phase requirement on the event itself makes it somewhat moot in this particular case.)
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Konrad Klar »

Bandobras Took wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:14 pm
@ Konrad: I'm not quite sure what argument you're making. It would still need to be determined whether Bounty is creating a possibility or modifying an existing one. (Of course, the site phase requirement on the event itself makes it somewhat moot in this particular case.)
Short-events are restricted by rule to having an effect on the game or potential effect.
in practice it does not mean anything.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by CDavis7M »

I used to read certain Events as creating an allowance to the rules. But later I realized that this doesn't lead to consistency with the rules. Now I recognize that playing a card is just a series of declared and resolved actions. So when a card creates an action, that action is a declared action that happens at resolution. A card effect does not usually create an "allowance" to the rules for normally taking that action, enabling the action to be taken later.

The only time a lasting "effect" is created (instead of an immediate action at resolution), is when there is no specific action to be taken at resolution. This occurs when the card-effect: (A) does not specify the action in a manner such that it could actually be taken, (B) where an action is triggered by an active condition, or (C) where an action is triggered by a passive condition.

When an Event creates an action, the created action is unrestrained by the normal playability requirements in the rules and only restrained by playability requirements of the card text itself. This is the only way to reconcile A Chance Meeting and other similar cards allowing the "play" of some entity. (More on "is playable" and card "effects" vs actions later).

For example, Bounty of the Hoard:
Bounty of the Hoard wrote:Playable during the site phase. One minor or major item may be played at a tapped site that contains a hoard.
Bounty of the Hoard lets you play an item unrestrained by the playability rules in the rulesbook. For example, the rules require a site to list an item type as being playable in order for the item to be played. Framsburg lists "Items (minor)" as being playable. Therefore, the rules do not allow a Player to play major items at Framsburg. The rules also require you to be in the site phase to play an item. But Bounty of the Hoard is not restricted by the playability requirements of the rules, it sets it's own requirements. It is not restricted by the site phase requirements in the rules or by the minor item allowance on Framsburg. The restrictions for playing the item are defined by Bounty of the Hoard's card text: it is restricted to the site phase, and to a tapped site, and to a site that contains a hoard. And so it can be played at a tapped Framsburg.

Also, consider A Chance Meeting:
A character (even a Hobbit) may be brought into play with at any free-hold, border-hold, or Ruin & Lairs.
This list of site-types is not a new allowance beyond the rules that creates additional site types where you may play a character. No -- this is a RESTRICTION on the site types that may be used to play a character by this effect. As such, a Chance Meeting cannot be used to play a character at a Haven because it is not in the list of site types.

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How do you know whether a card effect is a declared action or a modification to the rules? If a card effect describes actions without actually creating the actions, then the effect IS a modification to the rules (an allowance or a restriction). Otherwise, it is a declared action.

As mentioned above, you can determine that a card-effect is NOT an action and thus an effect that is in play (possibly modifying the rules) when the card-effect: (A) does not specify the action in a manner such that it could actually be taken, (B) where an action is triggered by an active condition, or (C) where an action is triggered by a passive condition. If you are lucky, the effect will also (D) refer to the rule being modified (e.g., using phrases like "as though" and "is considered").


Here are examples of cards that don't actually create specific actions, but create effects (which may alter playability requirements of the rules). (Guess which expansion set most of these cards come from)

Great Secrets Buried There ("may play this item as though it were in his hand at any Under-deeps site" -- refers to a specific item, but the player's companies are not necessarily at an Underdeeps site, and also, the statement references METW rules on playing from hand)

Summons from Long Sleep ("may play a reserved creature as though it were in your hand"-- the creature may not be immediately playable, and also this effect references METW rules on playing from hand)

A Strident Spawn ("may play Half-orc characters at your Wizardhavens, and even if your Fallen-wizard is not there" -- It says "characters." There is no specific character (singular) to be played as an action, and it references METW rules on playing characters and MEWH rules on playing Orcs)

Double-Dealing ("If the site is a hero site, you may play appropriate minion resources there" -- there is references FW rules on playing item)

Friend of Secret Things ("Your companies with a company size of 2 or less may play allies at tapped sites" -- it says "allies". There is no specific ally to be played by this effect. And it refers to the METW rules on playing Allies")


Armory is tricky. It has 2 effects. One to place minor items and one to play minor items.

Armory - Play Minor Item: (When you otherwise would be allowed to play a minor item from your hand ... may play an item from under Armory instead -- this specifies an item, but the item is not necessarily there to be played, and this statement references the METW rules on playing items from your hand).

Armory - Place Minor Items: "You may place any minor items from your hand under Armory during your organization phase. A character at a Haven can store a minor item under Armory instead of to your marshalling point pile."

-- This sentence looks like an action that specifies "any minor items." The "Play a Minor Item" effect is clearly not a declared action. And the statement "Only you and your companies can use Armory" is clearly an effect and not an action. So despite the lack of indicators in the sentence You may place any minor items from your hand under Armory during your organization phase -- it seems that this is not a declared action given that the rest of the card text are effects and not declared actions, and the fact that there is no indication that this effect is a one-time use (it is not discarded after use). And you need multiple items to get the 1 MP.

Sometimes, (but maybe not always) a card will have the declared actions first, and then a paragraph/new-line before stating the effects that can be used later. There is no line break in the "place minor items" effect in Armory, which hints this statement is not a declared action. As shown from this explanation, it's definitely not immediately clear and really only determined by the context of how the card would be used.

Rumours of Rings suffers from a similar lack of clarity as Armory:

"A maximum of two items may be with this card at one time." -- From the explanation above, we know this is an effect.
"You may play a ring special item placed with this card as though it were in your hand." -- This is also an effect.
"During your organization phase, you may take one ring special item (except for The One Ring) from your sideboard and place it "off to the side" with this card. " -- Is this an action or an effect? The ring can be specified - it is just a ring taken from your sideboard. So this statement has potential to be an action. There is no indication that this effect is a one-time use. But similar to Armory, this "action/effect" occurs during the organization phase while Rumors of Rings is not restricted to being played only during the organization phase and the other effects (playing the ring special item) are not restricted to the organization phase.

It would be nice if these cards indicated that the Player "may choose to take one ring special item" or "choose to play any minor items." Or set up an active condition of tapping the permanent events to trigger the taking and placing. But they didn't.

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