Open to the Summons

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:54 am

Yes. There is, but no existing effect would expose the difference.

Helm of her Secrecy would beat them both.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:41 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:31 pm
Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:16 pm
Short-events are restricted by rule to having an effect on the game or potential effect.
This does not mean anything.
Actually, it means that for any given event, it is vital to determine whether it creates the possibility of a given activity or merely affects it. If the former, it may be played at any time according to the restrictions on its own text. If the latter, the ability to perform the given activity must already be independently present for the event to be played.

The text of many short-events is open to interpretation either way.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:58 pm

I think that ICE has tried to express "you cannot play a card if its conditions do not exist".

Some cards are so constructed that it can never be excluded that they will have some effect at resolution.

EDIT: condition -> conditions
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by CDavis7M » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:04 pm

Well, Konrad, I don't understand your interpretation of the rules. But that is OK because the ARV is going to clarify this issue in a way that has no affect on the rules.

As for the restriction against cards being played for "no effect" - I interpret this as requiring some intended effect, not merely the conditions. My interpretation would prevent a player from playing Bounty of the Hoard without actually playing an item using it.

Also, how do you guys feel about 7-mind agents being played by Fallen Wizards by layering Open to the Summons followed by Thrall?
Ichabod Digest 85 wrote:From: "Michael Kaszubski" <mik...@konto.infocentrum.com>
>Does it mean you can play both Open to the Summons and Thrall of the Voice
>to put a 7-mind character (like Anarin) into play?
It means you can put a 7 mind *agent* into play.

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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:29 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:04 pm
My interpretation would prevent a player from playing Bounty of the Hoard without actually playing an item using it.
Some cards that allow playing an extra resource require having the resource in hand. Some do bot.
CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:04 pm
Also, how do you guys feel about 7-mind agents being played by Fallen Wizards by layering Open to the Summons followed by Thrall?

Ichabod Digest 85 wrote:
From: "Michael Kaszubski" <mik...@konto.infocentrum.com>
>Does it mean you can play both Open to the Summons and Thrall of the Voice
>to put a 7-mind character (like Anarin) into play?
It means you can put a 7 mind *agent* into play.
But not as character.
Even Thrall of the Voice does not allow to play a character with "mind 1 more than possible otherwise". It allows to play a character with mind up to 6.
Open to the Summons does not lift mind restrictions at all.
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by CDavis7M » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:54 pm

I think this post IS saying that you can play a minion-agent with 7-mind as a minion-agent-character (not as a hazard agent) using both Thrall and Open to the Summons. Why else would the original questioner be specifically asking about 7-mind characters (7 -1 -1 = 5, the 5-mind limit).

Plus, there are no mind-restrictions on Fallen Wizard's playing Agents as hazards or including them in their deck (as minion-agent-characters).
White Hand wrote:Characters – You may use both hero and minion characters. However, you may only use a character if
his mind attribute is 5 or less. All of your non-Orc/-Troll characters are considered to be hero
characters. You may only use up to two of each non-unique character.
Digest 78 wrote:Ignore the "use." Fallen-wizard may not play or start with characters
with more than 6 mind.
Open to the Summons requires an *agent* and so you can play a 7-mind agent-character as a character. But not ANY character, as Open to the Summons cannot be played on non-agent characters. Anarin being the only 7-mind agent.

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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:13 pm

I know that question was about character.
But some answers have little to do with questions (and are not backed by any logic).
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:14 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:58 pm
I think that ICE has tried to express "you cannot play a card if its conditions do not exist".

Some cards are so constructed that it can never be excluded that they will have some effect at resolution.

EDIT: condition -> conditions
No, they were trying to express that you can't dump cards just to get more draw. It's relevant in that many cards are valued simply because they have few to no restrictions on when they can be played, so they allow you to get through your deck more quickly.

Determining whether a card creates an activity or affects it is implicit in the rule that you may not play a card for no effect.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by CDavis7M » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:59 pm

This discussion reminded me of the Morgul-horse clarification in the CRF:
The alternative effect of this card can be played and resolved before any Nazgûl is played with it. A Nazgûl must be played as the first declared action in the chain of effects following the resolution of the alternative effect of Morgul-horse. If a Nazgûl is not played immediately following the resolution of this card, this card is returned to its player's hand. This card cannot be played for no effect just to discard it.
Of course, re-iterating the rules brings into question whether it is a rule.

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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by CDavis7M » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:17 pm

I thought about this more and sort of changed my mind. I still don't get how A Chance Meeting and We have Come to Kill can actually work within the rules. But, I think that if we accept that they actually do work within the rules, then Open to the Summons must also allow an additional character to be played.

The activities allowed to be performed according to the rulesbook operate according to the same fundamental mechanisms and in the same framework as the activities enabled by card effects. This must be true, right? It's one game. And so my best guess for how A Chance Meeting works (assuming that it does work within the rules) is to consider the rules for "Bringing Character Into Play" as less like a "rule" and more like an "effect."
MELE Bringing Characters Into Play wrote:You may play a non-Ringwraith character card.
A Chance Meeting wrote:A character (even a Hobbit) may be brought into play
We Have Come to Kill wrote:A character may be brought into play
Open to the Summons wrote:One agent minion may be played
First, I don't see any difference between "may be played" and "may be brought into play." And if there was a difference, it would count against A Chance Meeting and not against Open to the Summons, since "brought into play" would seem to reference the rules for bringing characters into play during the organization phase. So then, all of these statements provide the same effect on the game (again, this is just my best guess).

And then, if the rules for Bringing Characters into Play is just an effect that can be done once per turn in the organization phase, and A Chance Meeting is just an effect that can be done whenever a character with direct influence is at a site, and We Have Come to Kill is just an effect that can be done whenever a company is at a site, then Open to the Summons must also be an effect that can be done whenever the company that it is played on is at a Darkhaven.

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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:40 pm

You can be limited by general rules to do something only at given point of game, or only n times in turn, or in play.
But if particular card allows for the something, you can do it regardless of what general rules allow for. And it does not need to allow for it explicitly. The Windlord Found Me allows for playing a Wizard when it is stored. If it is stored in end-or-turn phase, you can play a Wizard in end-or-turn phase (that is otherwise not allowed by general rules).
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by CDavis7M » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:08 pm

I interpreted A Chance Meeting as only changing the site requirements for playing characters according to the normal rules.

But yes, if it is just an effect, then it appears that those regular rules don't apply. In contrast to Thrall of the Voice that specifically references the regular rules for bring characters into play ("Instead of a normal character...").

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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Theo » Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:12 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:40 pm
But if particular card allows for the something, you can do it regardless of what general rules allow for. And it does not need to allow for it explicitly. The Windlord Found Me allows for playing a Wizard when it is stored. If it is stored in end-or-turn phase, you can play a Wizard in end-or-turn phase (that is otherwise not allowed by general rules).
The difference is that The Windlord Found Me actually permits the player a card play action. A Chance Meeting and Open to the Summons do not permit any active action; their permission is on the card that is played / brought into play (presumably from some other---likely normal---rules allowing a play action). The character being allowed to be an agent or at a non-haven does not equate to allowing you to make up a character play action that has otherwise been restricted by the rules.
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:33 am

If short-event allows for taking some action outside a time of its execution it specifies duration. A Chance Meeting does not specify.
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Re: Open to the Summons

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:31 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:41 pm
Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:31 pm
Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:16 pm
Short-events are restricted by rule to having an effect on the game or potential effect.
This does not mean anything.
Actually, it means that for any given event, it is vital to determine whether it creates the possibility of a given activity or merely affects it. If the former, it may be played at any time according to the restrictions on its own text. If the latter, the ability to perform the given activity must already be independently present for the event to be played.

The text of many short-events is open to interpretation either way.
In practice it does not introduce anything more than playability conditions listed on card.
You may not have minor or major item in hand (or other source from which it may be played, e.g. Armory) and still you may play Bounty of the Hoard. Because in result of action declared in response you may have. Potentially.
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