Distribution of Direct Influence

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the Jabberwock
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Distribution of Direct Influence

Post by the Jabberwock » Wed May 15, 2019 10:13 pm

There has been debate in numerous topics in the past over how Direct Influence bonuses were intended to work.

Namely...
Thrain II
Unique. +3 direct influence against Dwarves and Dwarf factions.
The first interpretation, which so far as I know, most players today accept, is:
This +3 bonus may be used towards Dwarf characters and/or Dwarf factions, but you may not exceed 3 at any time. (ie. You may use 2 to control a 2 mind dwarf and put the remaining 1 toward a dwarf faction influence attempt. OR You may use 3 toward a dwarf faction influence attempt but may not use any of the 3 bonus simultaneously to control a dwarf follower.)

The second interpretation is that the full +3 bonus applies both to factions and characters simultaneously. (ie. Thrain may control a 2 mind dwarf character and a 1 mind dwarf character and simultaneously receive +3 to a dwarf faction influence attempt.

I propose a vote to make an appropriate Rules Clarification:
A character whose text gives a direct influence bonus to both characters and factions must distribute the bonus to those characters and/or factions without exceeding the number given.
OR
A character whose text gives a direct influence bonus to both characters and factions may distribute the full bonus towards characters and simultaneously distribute the full bonus towards faction influence attempts.

Reference Topic: None (yet)

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Theo
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Re: Distribution of Direct Influence

Post by Theo » Thu May 16, 2019 3:01 am

(If the parsing trees weren't evidence enough...)
CRF wrote:Restricted direct influence is limited in its use, usually to characters and/or factions of specific races.
There would be no reason to say "and/or" if there were separate +3 bonuses for characters and for factions.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
Have I not earnestly studied this matter?
Look up "e.g." if e.g. you think that it is an all-encompassing list.

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the Jabberwock
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Re: Distribution of Direct Influence

Post by the Jabberwock » Thu May 16, 2019 4:20 am

Point taken, but I don't think that CRF entry is enough to clearly prove the point. There could theoretically be a character who gives a bonus to "man factions" but not to "man characters." In this case, the quoted CRF could still apply using the OR clause.

Or it may have just been the way the author chose to write that ruling.

If you remove the "OR" it still leaves room for interpretation.

I will try to dig up the old topics where this was discussed, but I know it has been debated in the past without clear resolution.

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the Jabberwock
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Re: Distribution of Direct Influence

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:33 pm

Here is a quote from one old question on the issue:
Bandobras Took wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:55 pm
Jabberwocky wrote: Direct Influence - Thrain II is controlling a 5 mind dwarf which uses all of his available direct influence (2 points of general and 3 points specific towards dwarves and dwarf factions). If he attempts to bring in a dwarf faction, will he get the +3 towards factions (stated using the word AND in his text) or will he get no bonus because the influence is currently being used to control a follower?

If he was instead controlling a 3 mind character dwarf, does he have 2 points of unrestricted DI
available while using all of his restricted DI? OR must he first use his 2 points of unrestricted
DI and 1 point of restricted, which leaves 2 points left available that may only be used for
dwarves and dwarf factions?

Unlike Thrain II which uses the word AND in his card text, the card Elf-stone uses OR: "+2 direct influence used against an Elf character or an Elf faction." Due to the word "OR" which is used, am I correct in guessing that if the direct influence is being used to control an Elf, that you can not also use the +2 bonus to influence an Elf faction?
Being debated in another thread. I personally believe they are separate bonuses; the majority favors a single bonus to be divided among all sources.

Here is a link to the other thread that goes into more detail on the debate: https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... =16&t=2737

I believe this issue is still in need of resolution, and thus a good candidate for the 2019 ARV.

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