The Witch-king Unleashed - suggestion

[Jambo]

E.g.:

Playable on The Witch-king (as your Ringwraith) at a Ruins & Lairs, Shadowhold, Dark-hold, or Dark-haven. You may take a Ringwraith from your sideboard or discard pile and immediately play it as a Ringwraith follower. In addition, if the Witch-king's company is not at a Darkhaven, you may tap a Ringwraith to take Fiery Blade or Morgul Blade from your discard pile into your hand. The Iron Crown affects The Witch-king this turn.

It's powerful but cool!

[marcos]

i like that! excellent IMO

[Thorsten the Traveller]

I would skip darkhaven altogether and be done with the fuss, Witch-king will totally dominate TRT, you'd be mad to play another guy, I think that's a pitty. Also, don't underestimate the power of Fiery/Morgul blades...bit strange to tap any RW for a card played on the WK
But, I haven't been really involved with this one, so it's just my 2 cents

[Jambo]

Morgul Blade and Fiery Blade aren't cards explicitly reserved for the Witch-king. Any RW can make use of them (particularly Morgul Blade).

I'm not bothered if the Witch-king is used to dominate TRT. He's the Black captain after all, and I think it's rather wishful thinking to expect all RWs to have (or to be given) an equally feasible chance at achieving this mission-esq card. All imo of course.

I did have a crazy thought...

What would this card be like if it were playable on the Witch-king even if he wasn't your RW? Potentially too massive for Khamul, but what about others?

[marcos]

I would skip darkhaven altogether and be done with the fuss, Witch-king will totally dominate TRT, you'd be mad to play another guy, I think that's a pitty. Also, don't underestimate the power of Fiery/Morgul blades...bit strange to tap any RW for a card played on the WK
But, I haven't been really involved with this one, so it's just my 2 cents

adunaphel and khamul are also good for TRT...

adunaphel can tap to bring some RWs from sb to discard, then untap with her unleashed and bring some more to sb, then back to the fray... then you just have to wait until you draw all other 8 RWs...

khamul with his new unleashed, can take 3 RWs from sb almost for "free", and he allows for another RW that don't require DI to be controlled... So khamul only needs to do the back to the fray trick once...

whithout the possibility of play WKU at the darkhaven, WK won't be the first option to build a TRT deck IMO, any of the aforementioned RWs are better...

Morgul Blade and Fiery Blade aren't cards explicitly reserved for the Witch-king. Any RW can make use of them (particularly Morgul Blade).

agree with Jamie on this

What would this card be like if it were playable on the Witch-king even if he wasn't your RW? Potentially too massive for Khamul, but what about others?

i don't like that idea, unleashed cards are suposed to be cards that are going to be played on your own RW...

[Thorsten the Traveller]

I meant, WKU is card for WK, but then it states that another RW can tap . So WK's ability is making other guys tap to grab something. No biggy, but bit weird.

agree with Marcos on the own RW requirement. We've discussed that general proposal once for UEP I think, it was too strong, so why only make exception for WK?

I must admit I never considered Khamul Unleashed for playing followers without being in Fell Rider at some point, it seems an abuse of the card. But yes you are right, without being in fell rider Khamul can actually get followers as easy if not easier than WK. I think this is not in line with the idea of the card.

[Frodo]

I must admit I never considered Khamul Unleashed for playing followers without being in Fell Rider at some point, it seems an abuse of the card. But yes you are right, without being in fell rider Khamul can actually get followers as easy if not easier than WK. I think this is not in line with the idea of the card.

Thorsten, what did you mean by this? It's my understanding that Khamul can get his followers just as easily no matter whether he's in Fell Rider mode or not. (Did I miss something?) Or did you simply mean that it's strange he can use TRT in Fell Rider mode?

Also, I assume when we made this card that this issue came up already, but: do we think the ability to duplicate KU as an event, and thus get 3 free followers, is too strong? Or since you can't do this first turn, it's okay?

Regarding the Witch-King: Let me tease out Jambo's suggestion a little. I agree it's a little strange to allow unleashed cards for RWs that aren't your own, but I don't think it's that strange in one particular case: The Witch-King. For example, is it any more strange than having a company where Ren is "your ringwraith" and the WK is just a follower? In these cases I see it as the WK allowing someone else to lead for a while... but since he is still the Black Captain, I don't see anything wrong (thematically) with him being the once exception to still being allowed to use his Unleashed card. He still functions as a supreme leader and organizer of the group, even if in the background.

IMHO, the bigger issue is balance. But since a deck dedicated to one RW who is not the WK will have either 2 or 3 of that RW, and only 1 WK, which means you are not likely to play WKU more than once per game, I'd say; if that! But this could be just the slight boost these decks need...

The exception is Khamul, of course, but this weakness could be remedied easily by listing the WK as an exception on the KU card for retrievable RWs.

Frodo

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Man, now I have to dive into this after all
I should have been clearer, you can't get the nine together in fell rider of corse, but if Khamul goes for it in black rider he still has a benifit over WK in that his card is a perm and you can start with one. Of course you might recycle WKU alot, but I suppose KU is better for timing issues. I just had not considerend you might play KU without any intention of playing fell rider, it seems unnatural to the card...

Wether WKU as follower is too strong or wether, as you say, this strategy (TRT) 'needs the little boost', I truly don't know because I havent played it and it is a rather big strat. Marcos keeps insisting getting the nine is virtually (hehe) impossible, so I take his word for it. If you go for it with Khamul, I suppose WKU won't be even in deck. But, maybe it'll make TRT more of an easier side-strategy that you use in longer games, then you don't have to set it up straight away, you get your mojo going when you got nr. 1 and 2 in play.

I'm not sure what playing WKU as follower means to other RW strategies. I suppose in general its always useful to catch the Blades and use the Crown, but as far as grabbing followers at havens, outside TRT? It's always useful to have an extra guy of course, and you don't have to worry about them being discarded on bodycheck anymore, but to get WKU from sideboard for this...

If it is to go between the darkhaven playability and the follower playability, I'd prefer, hmmm, don't know. Both seems too much of an alround booster. Though I prefer WK as active guy and not as TRT helper, I'd still prefer haven playability. I'm scared of the Blades and Crown.

Btw. Khamul is, supposedly because it's all a guess, keeper of Dol Goldur and nr. 2. So, what if he is follower of nr. 3 Dwar, would he not temporarily be giving over command also, maintaining his unleashed ability? or is this feat only reserved for the supreme leader, well next to supreme of course, only the orders from Lugburz are definite

[Frodo]

Marcos keeps insisting getting the nine is virtually (hehe) impossible

Oh boy...

I should have been clearer, you can't get the nine together in fell rider of corse,

I must be particularly dense today... **why is this the case?**

Frodo

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Am I mistaken? Where would you get the influence? Well you can play Words of Menace every turn, or Honey on Tongue...you need the horses, and they don't function with Fell Rider.

[Jambo]

Am I mistaken? Where would you get the influence? Well you can play Words of Menace every turn, or Honey on Tongue...you need the horses, and they don't function with Fell Rider.

No you're not mistaken. That's precisely the issue. Sooner or later the influence comes into effect.

[marcos]

Marcos keeps insisting getting the nine is virtually (hehe) impossible

well, i don't say it is impossible, but it is VERY hard... i made it 2 times, once with WK and once with Adunaphel.

My oppinion is to keep the card as it is... Acording to MELE, the 9 RWs struggle to be the favourite of the darklord, so why would WK help another guy? Keep all the unleashed cards as specific for "your" RW...

Btw. Khamul is, supposedly because it's all a guess, keeper of Dol Goldur and nr. 2. So, what if he is follower of nr. 3 Dwar, would he not temporarily be giving over command also, maintaining his unleashed ability? or is this feat only reserved for the supreme leader, well next to supreme of course, only the orders from Lugburz are definite

Agree. Do you remember the issue we got with Indur unleashed? Indur was able to be at the same company as a follower of any other RW and also able to move through under-deeps, so, if we changed that to be Indur specific, i think we should also keep this one as WK specific