problem with "plotting Ruin"

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Nerdmeetsyou
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problem with "plotting Ruin"

Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:59 am

I'm not sure if this is a real problem or if it was meant that way....
but the second clause on the card, doesn't mainly do anything:

If you have at least one Burning Rick, Cot,
and Tree, you must use minion site cards for
Border-holds [ ], Free-holds [ ] and hero
Havens. If you have at least one Smoke on the
Wind in play, all your companies are
considered overt.

As I started buliding a deck with this card I realized... this card would just stick in the sideboard. (because I can play somke on the wind and brning rick... anyway....)
Then in the end of the game bevor exausting I sideboard it... and get finaly MPs for the cards... without having to fight the nasty auto attacks at the free holds.

So either we just remove the clause from the card, because it wouldn't affect the game anyways.

OR my other suggestion would be to word it differently:
Like for example "Sentinels of Numenor". So when you play "smoke on the winds" it must be placed with the card to could full MPs...
so you would have to have Plotting Ruin out first... and you would suffer from the disadvantege of the auto attacks.
(But maybe then it would have to be a stage card you could start with to make it good enough... because it would take 3 Deck spaces then, so you could get it out early.!!!!

So is this realy an issue... or did i just missunderstand something?

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:21 pm

you might want to read the discussion on this card first.

the idea is that after the first burning you've shown your true face as a FW.

using minion sites for burning can be blessing and pain in the butt, blessing because it's easier for certain mp cards that tap the site, pain because of the attacks. Remember, sometimes you want to be overt. If I had had my say it would have been minion site from start, but some peeps prefer the hero burning, because of cheezyness or because of treacherous theme (ok there's something for that too).

Anyway, stage coming from sb always slows you down, they can only be played in org. phase, so you run the risk of getting no mp's for them at all, that's why some would prefer them in deck straight. So the clause is not unnecessary though yes you can get full mp's without facing any attacks, that's your risk to run.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

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Nerdmeetsyou
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:29 pm

I don't see any RISK at all with this card....
because where is the risk in a deck where you don't have numerous amoung of stage cards.... if you have a low number of stage cards there will never be a problem with playing it....

and I would never run it in the main deck anyway.... because it still needs 6 stage points to be playable... so I allways would want to draw it in lategame.... not early where it is just a dead card in hand!!!

I understand the thematic theme of this card... and it is greath!!!
BUT it doesn't work out, because it can be played easyly around it without and difficulty!!! It's rather stupid to play it before buring down.... instead of after... as the card is writen now.

If you want to keep the card thematic... what I think is greath... then we would have to rewrite its gametext....
BUt if we want it to be cheesy... then we can just skipp the last part of gametext... because it is just unneccesary!!!
(And it is never good card design to have something never relevant on a card....)

And I checked the old thread now... and see that my reagard where already mentioned by somebody else, but not properly responded to...
so please tell me why you want the card as it is???

I believe it is quiet cheep play if you can play all of them at hero freeholds....

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:57 pm

You have to build a deck around either beating those attacks or canceling them. Either way, it's impossible to do it squatting at Havens, where most of the cheeze associated with Fallen Wizards normally comes in.

Also ask yourself how you're going to tap the site in the first place. Both Burning and Smoke discard all factions playable at the site, so you can rule out most Free-Holds and quite a few Border-Holds; you'll pretty much be playing 1 MP allies if you're going to the Hero Versions of this site. For most FWs, it's actually more efficient just to go influence the factions playable there instead.

The big cheese problem is a Radagast Wellinghall squat, but that's cheese even without this card, and in that case you still have to keep one of your two characters untapped through the attacks.

Sure, it helps you get MPs. The risk is in the attacks themselves. Having to use Minion Free-Holds and Border-Holds is a bonus, in my opinion (allowing covert companies to play That's Been Heard Before Tonight), while making them Overt is a drawback, thus the big MP card, Smoke On The Wind, carries the heavier penalty when the card is played. If it's a card you sideboard in right before the end, that's fine; there are any number of cards like that.

The drawbacks to the card are:
1) Fewer MPs out of the resources that tap a hero site, since you won't be getting factions there;
2) Having to use your cancelers on the attacks created by the cards instead of your opponent's creatures, unless;
3) You are planning on beating them in honest combat (marcos can tell you how well that's worked for him recently on GCCG ;) ) -- the dice are not always your friend;
4) Making companies Overt if you've successfully played Smoke on the Wind.

It's certainly neither risk-free nor overpowered; it requires a mobile company to get full advantage since the cards it relates to cannot be duplicated at a site, while minor advantage can be had in a few decks.

I don't believe it's anything game-breaking, just a fairly benign advantage for a collection of drawbacks.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:59 pm

I believe it is quiet cheep play if you can play all of them at hero freeholds....
that makes two of us. thus one version was created where you would get full mp's for cards placed with Plotting or even points for Plotting, after the first site burned. But, it has been discussed, the others didn't like it, so no point in redoing that.

the risk, boder, would exist in not being able to play the card from sideboard in time, before opponent would call council...
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

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Nerdmeetsyou
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:16 pm

Oh now I see!

I don't see a power difficulty with the card... as you discribed already... it doesn't give you a Big MP ration when you play it at hero Free holds because there are no greather iteams playable... (something that I didn't think of before...) You get 4 MP out of it at most.

Still I think the main problem is putting something on a card that doesn't matter most of the time is just confusing...
I still believe... that it is a card that I would only sideboard in late game, because I don't want to draw it early... (drawing it in time is no risk with 2-3 in sideboard which can be boarded with Leaves.)

Because when I draw it early there is still another problem:
I might not have 6 stage points... so it is a dead card on hand.

Also if I want to be sneaky and play everything at hero havens... I will sideboard it in late game not to get extra attacks...

Then on the other hand if I waant to be overt and use Minion sites for better playable iteams, then I would Allways use Orks and Trolls in companies... so I would use Minion sites from the beginning!!!

So I believe the clause is just sensless, because it wouldn't matter at all... so why put something on a card that just doesn't matter!!!!

I would rahter prefer another version of this card where you are bound to play it before buring everything down... that gives you difficulties progressing with how far you have successed with buring...
(a greath thematic effect by the way!)

But it seems like you are not fond of changeing anything... so we have to stick with this version of the card... ayn't I right?

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:54 pm

no it's not overpowered, just thematically strange, that you could keep burning sites without auto attacks.

In fact it would be better to be a covert company at minion site since many attacks would be detainment, and mauhur/ulkaur are only marginally stronger than celeborn/dasakun. Thus it could be beneficial to have the clause if you draw this card early, so no it's not useless, it combines the original Plotting with a new function (at less sp minimum)
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

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Nerdmeetsyou
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:16 pm

yeah yeah i understand now that it's not overpowered....

and you seem to be right that it is also good to use a covert company....
on minion sites.

so in gerneral the card is good and balanced....


but I can only agree that it is somehow thematicaly off that you can burn all Hero sites... and then play the card late when sideboarded....
I would change that...
but as it seems that is already out of question.

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