Final two Awakened Plant cards:

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marcos
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Thorsten the Traveller wrote:interesting proposal Marcos, then you actually want your huorn to die...since the Huorn doesn't make it for playtesting, I'd say why not?
Try wording it like this: any awakened plant creature may be played on a company that has defeated an awakened plant attack in the same movement-hazard fase. [because all ap's are actually played in the mh-fase of course]

but then you suggest changing Darkness under Tree to Nature's Revenge, did I get that correctly?
yes, it fits better with the text, but i don't care wich picture we are going to use. Still, i prefer my 2º proposal:
Permanent-event
All Awakened Plant attacks are doubled. Any Awakened plant with no body have 5 body. A character can tap to cancel one of these attacks. Any Awakened Plant creature may be played keyed to a region or adjacent region (non Dark-domain, non Coastal Sea) where an Ally playable at Wellinghall (or blackbole) is present or an Ent faction was played, and may also be keyed to Ruins and Lairs, Shadow-holds or Border-holds in these regions. Awakened Plant attacks at Shadow-holds are not detainment. Cannot be duplicated
Thorsten the Traveller wrote:That one's fine too, but for general purposes of course the first one (any ap may be played on company after defeated attack) is better.

I had thought of that Wellinghall clause too, but then I was wracking my brain to think if there weren't any other allies that could be played at Wellinghall. Are there? Radagast Black Bird?

Statistically, body 5 seems better.
i don't think that AP are going to be played against a FW rada, because of the recycler being the same radagast itself as a hazard... And hey! it still makes sense that an AP can be keyed to a region adyacent to where FW radagast is, after all, he is a natureahollic :P
marcos
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my final votes go for 2 and 7
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Thorsten the Traveller
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interesting situation I hadn't thought of before, if you play an ent ally, then your opponent can play AP's on you too, that's right! hmmm. And of course opponent doesn't know that you are playing FW Rada when he constructs his deck, so Rada could face AP's when he's with his Bird, that doesn't feel right. I had thought of making this ability a resource, but couldn't find any card to match it with.
Sure there aren't any other allies playable at Wellinghall? Problem is it's an open ended hypothetical requirement, any ally could at some stage be playable at Wellinghall, but we want it to be just the ents. Okay, but we don't have ways to errata the ents to 'Ent Ally'.

Maybe we should include something like 'awakened plant creatures can't be played on a company that includes an Ally playable at Wellinghall.' Though of course, they can attack Treebeard now also in regular games.

So my vote will go to 2 and 7 also. Hopefully Huorn V will solve 6. out later.
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marcos
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nope, there aren't any other ally playable there
Jambo
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marcos wrote: 6.
Permanent-event
All Awakened Plant attacks are doubled. Any Awakened Plant attacks with no body have 5 body. A character can tap to cancel one of these attacks. Any Awakened Plant creature can be played against a company that defeated an Awakened Plant attack during his movement/hazard phase. Cannot be duplicated.
I also like this one for a Nature's Revenge.

How about:

Choking Shadows
Permanent-event
Playable on a non-Wizard, non-Ringwraith character facing a non-detainment strike from an Awakened Plant. The strike receives +2 prowess. If the strike is defeated, discard this card. If the strike is not defeated, place creature's card with Choking Shadows - creature is considered off to the side. The target character may not move to another site and the target character's company faces an attack from the creature at the start of each movement/hazard phase. Discard associated creature's card if Choking Shadows is discarded. Discard Choking Shadows if attached Awakened Plant is defeated. Cannot be duplicated on a character.

Nature's Revenge
Permanent-event
All Awakened Plant attacks are doubled. Any Awakened Plant attack with no body has 5 body. A character can tap to cancel one of these attacks. Any Awakened Plant creature can be played against a company that has defeated an Awakened Plant attack during its movement/hazard phase. Cannot be duplicated.
marcos
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i agree, as i said before, 6 and 7 were my suggestions, so i like them both :P (prefer 7 but any of them is ok with me)
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Thorsten the Traveller
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I would still like to see the keyability as part of a Huorn V, there it will be definitely more effective, because you can voice Nature's Revenge, you can cancel the attack, or get smacked by it, but facing Huorn is easy, most of the time, and it's easily got back to hand or regenerated.
So for playtesting this is nice, but eventually it would fit better elswhere I think, and of course the problem is that once something takes hold it is more difficult to change it.
But otherwise, no objections :lol:
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Thorsten the Traveller
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I'm thinking a bit more on it, and maybe the keyability after Huorn attack is a bit too much after all, you are right Jambo.
But the thing is, since this Nature's Revenge (former DuT) says that a character can tap to cancel an attack, he thereby automatically makes it impossible to play the other AP's keyed to single wilderness, in case of Huorn, or to Borderland in case of Ent. Is that not strange? So only an Alatar hunting-party would basically opt to try and destroy it, because most others would not want to risk unleashing the other plants coming after. In the case of Ent it would be madness anyway since you need two bodyrolls at 9...
Of course, forcing opponent to thus tap has its uses too, but is that what the card is supposed to do?

I can't yet see where to add the phrase to improve keyability, so best stick with the earlier version?
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marcos
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you forgot about heroes with forewarned is forearmed... they will want to get the MP by easilly playng FiF and a risky blow... just like the same they do with assassins and/or slayers... And FiF is a very very played card...
i think it is ok because it opens the door to 3 posibilities:
1º- face it and die fighting
2º- cancel and be stuck at the door of the site because of your guys tapped...
3º- Defeat it and face the nature's rage!
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Lots to comment on here... And great to see so much input!

First of all, "a creature or agent attack that is detainment can never be defeated (LE Rules)." My Play and Examples File is good for this kind of stuff.
But the thing is, since this Nature's Revenge (former DuT) says that a character can tap to cancel an attack, he thereby automatically makes it impossible to play the other AP's keyed to single wilderness, in case of Huorn, or to Borderland in case of Ent. Is that not strange?
Actually, I thought this made a lot of sense. It gives heroes an option to NOT incur Nature's Wrath by "not killing the trees".

Choking Shadows as a name is fine.

I agree with Thorsten that Choking Shadows must read "Discard CS if attached creature's prowess is defeated." A perpetual Ent chasing Minions is no good.

Thorsten brought up the Ent-creatures-attacking-theEnt-allies problem. Hmm! Here’s my suggestion for the card, with important changes capitalized for emphasis.

Waiting Shadow/Darkness Under Tree
Permanent-event
All Awakened Plant attacks are doubled. ONE character can tap to cancel one of these attacks. [Awakened Plants with no body have 5 body.] Any Awakened Plant creature can be played against a company that defeated an Awakened Plant attack during THE SAME movement/hazard phase.
IN ADDITION, any Awakened Plant may be played keyed to a site or region where Blackbole or an Ally playable at Wellinghall is present, unless any of those allies are in the resource player’s company. Cannot be duplicated.

The rest of the information about adjacent regions and special sites (and the Faction) is not really needed and just makes the card text clunky. I want the card to say “one character” to eliminate all confusion as to whether “A character…” means “each and every character may do this.” You guys might recall the fuss over Nameless Thing.

Also, I’m not convinced that we need the body enhancement at all. It also works against the “you killed them, now you face Nature’s wrath” idea because it’s pure luck if a company that is **trying** to kill them actually succeeds (i.e., since character prowess rolls can be supported but body checks cannot). I think the card that returns them from the MP pile is a more original way of dealing with the dead Ents problem. Unless at least two of you strongly feel that we need the body modification, let’s cut it. Also, if two of you don't like the ally text, let's cut it.

I vote for “2-3-4”, but with the modifications suggested above.

Titles: Waiting Shadow or Darkness Under Tree for attack doubling card (I'd say Waiting Shadow), Choking Shadows for chaser card, Nature's Revenge for the card that returns them from the MP pile.

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Remember guys we only have two cards left for APs. Can we settle for something like:

Choking Shadows
Permanent-event
Playable on a non-Wizard, non-Ringwraith character facing a non-detainment strike from an Awakened Plant. The strike receives +2 prowess. If the strike fails, discard this card. Otherwise place creature's card with Choking Shadows - creature is considered off to the side. The target character may not move to another site and the target character's company faces an attack from the creature at the start of each movement/hazard phase. Discard associated creature's card if Choking Shadows is discarded. Discard Choking Shadows if a strike fails. Cannot be duplicated on a character.

Changed wording to strike failing rather than strike being defeated to deal with APs with body values. If this card and the card below are both in play, the attacks at the start of subsequent the m/h phases will be doubled. However, the way CS is written means that as soon as the first strike fails, CS and therefore also the creature will be immediately discarded. This will occur before the second attack has a chance to resolve. Are people fine with that?

Darkness Under Tree
Permanent-event
All Awakened Plant attacks are doubled. One character can tap to cancel one of these attacks. Any Awakened Plant creature can be played against a company that has defeated an Awakened Plant attack during its current movement/hazard phase. Cannot be duplicated.

This one now says "current m/h phase" and I removed body as suggested by Joe. So, if a company has an untapped character then it can choose to not invoke the wrath by not killing the AP. I'm not overly convinced the additional AP playability is necessary. These creatures are relatively playable as they stand - huorn to w and key regions/sites, OMW to ww and key regions/sites, Ent keyable to border-lands, free-domains, ww and shadow-lands.
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Jambo wrote: Choking Shadows
Permanent-event
Playable on a non-Wizard, non-Ringwraith character facing a non-detainment strike from an Awakened Plant. The strike receives +2 prowess. If the strike fails, discard this card. Otherwise place creature's card with Choking Shadows - creature is considered off to the side. The target character may not move to another site and the target character's company faces an attack from the creature at the start of each movement/hazard phase. Discard associated creature's card if Choking Shadows is discarded. Discard Choking Shadows if a strike fails. Cannot be duplicated on a character.

Darkness Under Tree
Permanent-event
All Awakened Plant attacks are doubled. One character can tap to cancel one of these attacks. Any Awakened Plant creature can be played against a company that has defeated an Awakened Plant attack during its current movement/hazard phase. Cannot be duplicated.
just noticed 2 things:

Re Choking Shadows: character cannot move but he faces an attack at the start of the mov/haz phase... Remember that huorn/omw can only be played at few sites, so they will attack only at wellinghall, old forest, druadan forest and sarn gorinwing... Or does the ent attack even if he cannot be played?

Re Darkness Under Tree:
"Any Awakened Plant creature can be played against a company that has defeated an Awakened Plant attack"

remember that if attacks are doubled, the FIRST atack can be defeated but not the second, anyway, the first attack was defeated and nature's wrath can be unleashed... Do we want it to be this way? Maybe it should read:
"Any Awakened Plant creature can be played against a company that has defeated an Awakened Plant creature"

other than that, i like these 2, but joe's darkness under tree instead... Remeber that they can mostly be played at [w], and what can the hazard player do against opponent moving through shadow/ dark/ border/ free or squatter, i know put more emphasis on ent in search, but is it enough? i like the keyability improvement, joe's version is great IMHO even without the body modifier.

i'd say chocking shadow and Joe's darkness udner tree/ waiting shadow
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This might be better:

Choking Shadows
Permanent-event
Playable on a non-Wizard, non-Ringwraith character facing a non-detainment strike from an Awakened Plant and whose company is moving to a Border-hold [Bh], Ruins & Lairs [Rl], or Shadow-hold [Sh]. The strike receives +2 prowess. If the strike fails, discard this card. Otherwise place creature's card with Choking Shadows - creature is considered off to the side. The target character may not move to another site and his company faces an attack from the creature at the start of each movement/hazard phase. Discard associated creature's card if Choking Shadows is discarded. Discard Choking Shadows if any strike fails. Cannot be duplicated on a character.

Now there should be no attacks at inappropriate sites. Attacks would occur regardless of keyability. There is of course another possibility, which would relieve the problem of keying to inapproriate sites, and indeed keying to the many sites where the APs are not normally playable:

Choking Shadows
Short-event
Playable on a non-Wizard, non-Ringwraith character facing a non-detainment strike from an Awakened Plant creature. The strike receives +2 prowess. If the strike is successful, the target character faces further attacks from the creature until either a strike fails or the target character is eliminated. Discard the creature if a strike fails and the creature is not eliminated, or when the target character is eliminated. Cannot be duplicated on a character.

Less roadblocky and more thematic to the effect we're (or I'm ;)) trying to create.

Darkness Under Tree
Permanent-event
All Awakened Plant attacks are doubled. One character can tap to cancel one of these attacks. Any Awakened Plant creature can be played against a company that has defeated an Awakened Plant creature during its current movement/hazard phase. Cannot be duplicated.

Correct for creature.

Regarding this:
In addition, any Awakened Plant may be played keyed to a site or region where Blackbole or an ally playable at Wellinghall is present, unless any of those allies are in the resource player’s company.

What would happen if this card is in play and one were to key an AP to Old Forest when Treebeard was there. Normally this wouldn't cause a problem, but with this card... would it no longer be possible? Would having any Ent or Blackbole in a company make it invulnerable to APs when this card is in play?
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Thorsten the Traveller
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Joe I'm not sure that all the keyability stuff on Waiting Shadow can just be left out. First of all I don't like the idea of an AP attack being detainment at Shadow-holds, not thematically and because you should be able to target minion squatters there, I want to lead my army to the rebuilt Worthy Hills not just to have a chat! Second, but should we take the ents to Mount Doom as well? And how about ents in the Isles of the Dead? bit strange.
But your addition of 'can't be played' is very good of course.

I understand then there's too much on the card. I therefore propose this:

Choking Shadows will be Waiting Shadow, just like Jamie proposed originally. I think you won't put 3 in the deck for this one, or will you? And the waiting part fits perfectly. @Marcos: I think it's not the creature attacking, but rather the character faces an attack by awakened plant, so no problem about keyability, right?

Darkness under Tree will be Choking Shadows: it's the booster that everybody will want most, so it should be common.

Waiting Shadow will be Darkness under Tree: art and title fit here too I think, and I think it's better as a separate card. You won't need 3 of these cards either, maybe just one actually, so that's better for Darkness. For playtesting reasons then we could add it to Choking Shadows and without the keyability stuff.

Then there's still Nature's Revenge, hehe.

Take a look at my new Huorn proposal.
I agree that giving the resource player the option to tap or fight is nice, and it would fit even thematically, but I feel it's not in tune with the card's purpose, i.e. to create attacks. Now you'd probably scare away your opponent. Sure FiF is often played, but it gets discarded after the defeated attack, so I would really think twice as a resource player before I unleash a probable 6 attacks (3 creatures) at 13/14, with perhaps in the future some regenerated Huorn as well.
But to be fair, I don't think that Darkness is a problem either, or playtesting will prove otherwise, we'll see. Except, I would change it to Chokin for reasons explained above.

The additional body is not necessary if we agree on regenerating in the future, right? Otherwise I think they could use some because there will not be that many huorns left.
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Jambo
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Thorsten, see post above yours. :)
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