Council of Elrond

Sorry to tread on old ground, but I think we may have to revisit this one.

Regards retaining uses for the original cards:

If we want to retain a use for the original Great Goblin, how do we do that?

Remove the virtual version's ability to be played as a creature other than through the text of the permanent-event. Or to a lesser extent we could just remove its ability to be keyed to a dark-hold?

Regards the Great Goblin in general:

I'm really thinking that in terms of fairness, if one of the +2 modified capturing attacks is defeated, The Great Goblin should be discarded. Most permanent-events that enhance creature attacks have a clause for discarding, and this one should be no exception. If prisoners are taken, the hazard player runs the risk of TGG being discarded if they continue to pursue with the first effect. Even if it's discarded, The Great Goblin can always be recycled by the hazard player - Unexpected Outpost and Mouth of Sauron.

Here's the potential solution:

1. Removing all playability.

The Great Goblin V:
Creature or Permanent-event.
MP: 2
P/B: 12/7
Unique. Orc. One strike.
As a permanent-event, you may tap The Great Goblin to modify any non-detainment Orc creature attack of normally more than one strike (tapping counts against the hazard limit): +2 prowess and the first successful strike does not harm the character but takes the character prisoner at Goblin-gate. Discard The Great Goblin if such a modified attack is defeated. Rescue attack: this card as a creature. If there are prisoners at Goblin-gate, each movement/hazard phase one Orc creature does not count against the hazard limit.

2. Just removing the dark-hold playability.

The Great Goblin V:
Creature or Permanent-event.
MP: 2
P/B: 12/7
Unique. Orc. One strike.
As a creature, may be played keyed to High Pass, Goblin-gate or The Under-grottos.
As a permanent-event, you may tap The Great Goblin to modify any non-detainment Orc creature attack of normally more than one strike (tapping counts against the hazard limit): +2 prowess and the first successful strike does not harm the character but takes the character prisoner at Goblin-gate. Discard The Great Goblin if such a modified attack is defeated. Rescue attack: this card as a creature. If there are prisoners at Goblin-gate, each movement/hazard phase one Orc creature does not count against the hazard limit.

No. 1 is better if you're not wanting to obsolete the original card.

Re no.1: how can he be played as a creature?

Re no.2: This i better IMHO. maybe we can reduce his body to 6, so the rescue attack will be easier to defeat and we give the original one more option to be chosen for...

i like number 2, but 6 body

In no. 1 he can only be played as a creature for the rescue attack. In otherwords - normal version for creature, modified version for event with possibility of creature.

yes no.2 for me too, you're right it would be more suitable.

removing darkhold keyability but more importantly probably, playability on company moving between Rivendell and Lorien, should be enough. To make him utterly useless as a creature: remove keyability in High Pass, but I don't think that's necessary, normally you won't want to keep him in hand as creature anyway. You could let him opt to attack at Goblin Gate from perm. state, like Shelob or Spider o Morlat.

I wouldn't change body, he's 2 MP, and only one strike, so that's fair. But one less body I can also live with (question is, can he? )

but he is a minion that can be stirred

ah yes, but the original proposal had something like: rescue attack, this cards original attack...so that would mean 1@12/7

but not now, right? Or am i wrong?

That part's still the same. The Great Goblin is still the rescue attack regardless of versions and that could still be 'minion stirred' at the time of rescue. The Great Goblin doesn't have to be defeated to rescue prisoners. One just has to have an untapped character available after facing Goblin-gate automatic attacks and the GG.

ok, then i prefer no.2 and body 6

I can go with that.

thorsten agreed too, so i think we have our final version...?

(finally)

What happens if there are prisoners at Goblin Gate but nothing to do with this card? lol

Does this help?

The Great Goblin V: (remove Dark-hold)
Creature or Permanent-event.
MP: 2
P/B: 12/6
Unique. Orc. One strike.
As a creature, may be played keyed to High Pass, Goblin-gate or The Under-grottos.
As a permanent-event, you may tap The Great Goblin to modify any non-detainment Orc creature attack of normally more than one strike (tapping counts against the hazard limit): +2 prowess and the first successful strike does not harm the character but takes the character prisoner at Goblin-gate. Discard The Great Goblin if such a modified attack is defeated. Rescue attack: this card as a creature. If there are prisoners with this card at Goblin-gate, each movement/hazard phase one Orc creature does not count against the hazard limit.

perfect, ok with me

DM rules state that host cards are discarded if there are no imprisoned characters there. So, GG will heve to be discarded if prisoners are rescued regardless of whether he is killed or not.

The Great Goblin V: (remove Dark-hold)
Creature or Permanent-event.
MP: 2
P/B: 12/6
Unique. Orc. One strike.
As a creature, may be played keyed to High Pass, Goblin-gate or The Under-grottos.
As a permanent-event, you may tap The Great Goblin to modify any non-detainment Orc creature attack of normally more than one strike (tapping counts against the hazard limit): +2 prowess and the first successful strike does not harm the character but takes the character prisoner at Goblin-gate. Rescue attack: this card as a creature. If there are prisoners with this card, each movement/hazard phase one Orc creature does not count against the hazard limit. Discard The Great Goblin if such a modified attack is defeated or prisoners are rescued.

so it's a 1 shoot modifier right?

we have a final version? please post it on the final version's topic