The Witch-king Unleashed - suggestion

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:07 pm

Of course there is never enough room in sideboard Marcos, that's called making choices...I'd say 9 mp is a good back-up for some MPs you missed out on. Add a faction and ally, and you're done. If you want to play many dragon factions, then don't play TRT...

Current version of TRT says to tap the card if you move. I made corrections with Joe's file in hand. So the tap per turn version is of the table, right? Otherwise the whole deal would take 8-9 turns, that's way too long anyway. But it can still be duplicated..
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

marcos
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Post by marcos » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:08 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:huge comp. of RW first turn? You'd need WK, and several WKU first turn, and opponent must be hero, and somewhere not in Eriador, or you need some March/Legg it. That I call lucky.
And they're not in fell rider, so prowess is 9 max., scary enough, but even Halbarad has a chance :wink:
Jambo proved that the problem was indeed ammasing a huge company too quickly after killing Vastor's entire company on turn 1 or 2... So we are trying to solve that. Nothing else seems to be wrong with the card

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:12 pm

In science we say: N=1 is a poor basis for conclusions. :wink:
There are many tales of Umi/Bumi crushing opponent first turn. In fact I could say, it was even lucky for Jambo that Vastor drew his wizard first turn...
But again, nothing against proposed change.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

marcos
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Post by marcos » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:20 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:Current version of TRT says to tap the card if you move. I made corrections with Joe's file in hand. So the tap per turn version is of the table, right? Otherwise the whole deal would take 8-9 turns, that's way too long anyway. But it can still be duplicated..
i guess you are not understanding the card correctly, it says you MAY tap to move again:
They ride togheter wrote: If all nine of your Ringwraiths are in a company together you may tap this card at the end of the company’s movement/hazard phase to allow them to move again; this card gives 3 MPs when tapped. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item.
you may tap the card at end to mov/haz phase to immediatly move again, once it is tapped it is worth 3 MPs, and you move again (same turn). Another mov/haz phase for that company, and, if you have another TRT in play, tap it and move again and another 3 MPs, and the same with 3º TRT... so you face 4 mov/haz phase on a turn and tap the 3 copies of it in the same turn.

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Post by Jambo » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:26 pm

Shall we just bin the change altogether and just see how it the originally suggested WKU pans out? Granted Vastor's deck was perfect for a RW CvCC kill. :)

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Post by marcos » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:33 pm

you mean this version:


The Witch-king Unleashed V:

Short event
Playable on The Witch-king as your Ringwraith. You may take Fiery Blade or Morgul Blade from the discard pile to your hand.
Alternatively, playable on The Witch-king as your Ringwraith at any Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, Dark-hold or Darkhaven. You may take a Ringwraith from the sideboard or discard pile and immediately play it as a Ringwraith follower. Additionally, The Iron Crown affects The Witch-king this turn.

???

i was in favor of this one from the beginning, but if the problem is the ammasing of a huge army too quickly, then, the propposed modification is the way to go without modifying the card too much

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:44 pm

I thought you were referring to an older version that had increased mp value on just one copy of TRT each turn...

Anyway, if we skip the darkhaven playability, then the dangers for a big fast CvCC are also smaller, since then companies at free/border hold are safe from this WK assault. I still think it's the way to go, I like WKU for an active WK, not for TRT or other (perhaps cheezier) follower purpose. Get the WK going fast, immediately, play WKU during site-phase to play an item if the guy is tapped, what could be more logical? Normally a single WK in black rider would not go to Ruins, there's just too many ways to stop the guy from doing stuff.
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Post by marcos » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:58 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:I like WKU for an active WK, not for TRT .
Why not for TRT? After all, he is the black captian... no one will fit better for this quest than him

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Post by Frodo » Mon May 19, 2008 4:24 am

Gentlemen, did we come to a consensus to strike dark-haven playability from this card? And is everything else okay on it?

I seem to recall Marcos and I figuring out during a game that there was one problem with not allowing darkhaven playabilty, I think it had to do with not being able to play a Black Rider right away on the 1st turn if you want to move immediately... or maybe it was that the number of Riders you'd get wouldn't allow enough DI to control all followers... Marcos, do you remember what this important issue was?

Frodo

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Post by marcos » Mon May 19, 2008 9:12 pm

i do remember. The game you are quoting was that one in wich i played TRT for points. I used a courious withered heat shuffle for card draw and i used "the mouth recycle trick" to keep WKU and weigh all things always in deck.
The issue was that if the RWs are not at the darkhaven, the mouth (or any ohter character) cannot be played in such fashion...

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Post by Jambo » Tue May 20, 2008 12:39 pm

The WKU is very a powerful card, no doubt.

One thought I had was to make the WKU required a RW (not necessarily the Witch-king) to tap for the playability affect? That way, if all RWs are tapped the player can't use the card to get a RW from sb - think of it as a RW calling (aka screeching) for the others. Obviously the more RWs you gather, the less this will be an issue, but it will at least slow down the insta-big-scary-company a little. Thoughts? (might also encourage the secondary option more).

It would look like this:
The Witch-king Unleashed wrote:Playable on The Witch-king (as your Ringwraith) at any Ruins & Lairs, Shadowhold, Dark-hold, or Dark-haven. Tap a Ringwraith in The Witch-king's company to allow you to take one Ringwraith from your sideboard or discard pile and immediately play it as a Ringwraith follower.
Alternatively, you may take Fiery Blade or Morgul Blade from the discard pile to your hand.
The Iron Crown affects The Witch-king this turn.
I think this might be a very sound compromise.

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Post by marcos » Tue May 20, 2008 8:03 pm

since i was one of the guys who has playtested the card a lot i have to say that i don't like any change on the card. As it stands, the card is powerful, no doubt, but not that much as a game-breaker.
I think that the playability from sb is the best stuff that this card has. It is some kind of we have come to kill for balrog but without getting any character marshalling point. We already discussed that the big quick scary company can only happen with the adecuate (and lucky) draw...

The card is ok IMO, needs no change, but as we all know, Joe has the last word :roll:

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Post by Jambo » Tue May 20, 2008 9:18 pm

Ok, marcos convinced me otherwise on this, but perhaps there's a way to encourage the secondary option of the fiery blades more?

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Post by Frodo » Tue May 20, 2008 9:34 pm

Marcos, just to confirm: you're saying that we don't need to remove the dark-haven playability, correct? If so, would it be too strong to say (it probably would be, but I'm just checking): "Playable on The Witch-king as your Ringwraith at any Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, Dark-hold or Darkhaven. You may take two Ringwraiths (one at a Darkhaven) from the sideboard or discard pile and immediately play it as a Ringwraith follower." Was just trying to figure out if there's a way to encourage non-darkhaven squatting.

Jambo's idea is interesting. What about allowing fiery blade playability not as an alternatively, but as an "in addition", but THAT ability can only be used if you "Tap a Ringwraith follower"? Maybe that's too quick... but if we ask for more than one to tap, it limits people who just want the blades and aren't gathering followers.

OH... maybe the extra line could be "in addition, if NOT AT A DARKHAVEN, you may take fiery blade..." This means the WK has to do some traveling to find these blades!

Frodo

marcos
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Post by marcos » Tue May 20, 2008 9:48 pm

Frodo wrote:Marcos, just to confirm: you're saying that we don't need to remove the dark-haven playability, correct? If so, would it be too strong to say (it probably would be, but I'm just checking): "Playable on The Witch-king as your Ringwraith at any Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, Dark-hold or Darkhaven. You may take two Ringwraiths (one at a Darkhaven) from the sideboard or discard pile and immediately play it as a Ringwraith follower." Was just trying to figure out if there's a way to encourage non-darkhaven squatting.

Jambo's idea is interesting. What about allowing fiery blade playability not as an alternatively, but as an "in addition", but THAT ability can only be used if you "Tap a Ringwraith follower"? Maybe that's too quick... but if we ask for more than one to tap, it limits people who just want the blades and aren't gathering followers.

OH... maybe the extra line could be "in addition, if NOT AT A DARKHAVEN, you may take fiery blade..." This means the WK has to do some traveling to find these blades!

Frodo
playing 2 followers will be too strong indeed, then you don't need to do the mouth trick to play the 9 RWs, just recycle 1 WKU with weigh all things and you are set...

"in addition, if not at a darkhaven, you may tap a RW to take a blade and put into hand"

other suggestions are:
in addition, if WK controls iron crown...
in addition, if skies of fire is in play...
in addition, if TRT is in play...
Last edited by marcos on Tue May 20, 2008 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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