Re Open to the summons

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Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:01 am

Yes, you would need to say "Undeeps or Mountain(s)" to cover all these cards. Here's the list:
The Misty Mountain Deeps
The Ash Mountain Deeps
The Mountains of Shadow Deeps
The Undeeps of Anduin
The White Mountain Cavern-ways

Almost a shame this doesn't work for regular minion. ;)

marcos
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Post by marcos » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:13 pm

add to the list:

Misty mountain wargs
white mountain wolves
grey mountain goblins
orcs of the ash mountains

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:53 pm

I'm not crazy about him pulling factions. Let's say "events," then:

"Baduila may tap to take Swag (or any resource event with "Mountain" or "Undeeps" in the title) into hand from play deck or discard pile."

By the way, I just noticed his company CAN still use Foul Trophies. It's just that Baduila can't play it himself. Which is fine; he's just taking the card into hand (giving his company access to it). Shall we make him able to pull this card as well? Best use: making a chilled elf-lord 1 at 20/7 instead of 3 at 17.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:54 pm

Let's not overdo it, grabbing swag/trophies/Misty is already nice, but what the hell does Baduila know of Mordor or Gondor anyway?

My favourite would be, thematically, Roam the Waste, but then playable as if Strangling Coils were in play. Or, well, just play strangling coils, it's not a bad mode, anything better than Great Shadow I suppose...Going Ever under Dark maybe?

Thinking about Baduila in avatarless deck, it could be usefull to grab No More Nonsense, and make Baduila a leader that can be with leaders in company. That way you can gain some major influence relatively easy, though your authority needs to be established. Obey him or Die alas only works if in comp. with Balrog, so you'd need to stay the first turn at Moria.

other options:
-Hidden Ways: Baduila guides them safely. powerful and avoids elf lords, so maybe better not.
-Come by Night upon Them: Orc raiders descending from the mountains with help from Baduila the betraying trader. Very useful in Baduila deck, can play item before playing faction, though this is intended by Swag also.
-Tidings of Death: Baduila threatens the men at Borders: surrender or big red will come down upon you! Nice for needed high rolls on Beornings and such. Also nice because has effect on opponent, for better or worse.
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Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:21 pm

The idea is that as an experienced Mountaineer, he'd figure his way around even other mountains. However, I'm not crazy about the idea of OTHER companies (which Baduila is not in) using his region-movement cards. Perhaps it should be limited to just the Misty Mountains, unless we really think it's quite possible a Balrog Baduila company will seriously think about going to other areas of Middle-earth with the region movers.

I had thought about Tidings of Death too. Hmm, Come By Night Upon Them is a *great* theme, but isn't this a bit too powerful to be able to pull it? Come By Night makes me wonder if Swag is even as necessary as we thought.

Okay, so Baduila may tap to at least take Swag, Foul Trophies, Tidings of Death, or The Misty Mountain Deeps. Sounds good?

When should Baduila be allowed to tap? If we say only at the end of turn, it limits his power significantly--he'll probably only tap twice per game. If we test any time, he can do things like take a strike, then tap to grab something--he'll probably be able to tap every turn (5 times per game). Ah, make that six times... because on your very first turn, you can tap during your untap phase, before untapping!

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:28 pm

Is there any reason not to stick with 3 cards and grabbing from discard, like a normal sane fallen wizard? should he be bigger than that? lets not forget this guy isn't even an avatar yet, he's just an addition to your starting company...
Also it's not like we don't have text on the card yet, there's quite alot on it already.

I'd go with tidings, swag and misty, grab from discard, and tap during org. or end of turn. just tapping responding to hazards I don't like. tapping before your first untap sounds very StarWars ccg, ultimate deck manipulation.

Can't or shouldn't he be a leader? He can then use useful cards like commands and No More Nonsense. I think that's more useful than just adding a load of cards he can grab.
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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:13 pm

btw I think Swag V would offer distinct advantages over Come by Night, though they have the same end result.
Looking at the set, there is a small Fair Travels sub-theme, but is anyone really attached to Fair Sailing? It is certainly nice as ability, but does it really serve a need, do coastal decks need this kind of help? If one were to go for Swag, I would choose this one.
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Post by Frodo » Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:47 am

Okay, swag, tidings, and misty. Taps during end-of-turn phase.

I picked "or from play deck" in part because he isn't an avatar, therefore he can use these abilities from turn 1. If he ever envision him to be used w/o the Balrog this would be good too. But it's mostly because I thought it would be good to give the player a reason to *not* put these cards in his sideboard. Anyone else have an opinion?

So for now: "During the end-of-turn phase, you may Baduila to take Swag, Tidings of Death, or The Misty Mountain Deeps into hand from your discard pile."

As far as being a leader, this would also prevent *other* leaders from being in the company, so wouldn't the loss be equal?

Fair Sailing... hmm... this was one of the first decks Brian Min made. It was pretty good. I'm pretty sure I saw someone else who had made this deck as well. I'd feel bad about cutting this one out... does anyone else have any opinions?

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Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:22 am

with this new Open to the Summons, I'd rather assess how it pans out before swapping a new Swag in for another card like Fair Sailing.

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Post by marcos » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:03 am

ummm... i think bert played a dwarves on boat deck during tourney with an unexpected pary + great ship + fair sailing

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:12 am

What about other opinions on "from play deck"?

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Post by Jambo » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:19 am

Saruman has to tap to take spells from the discard and how often do you see that being used? Not very often since he'll often be tapped. Most wizard helper cards tap the card, but then only take from the discard.

So I'd say you could do one of two things:

1. Tap the card to take cards from the discard.

2. Tap the character to take from either.

I'd be inclined to go for the second option since the first option is quite powerful once the player gets them to the discard.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:30 am

the issue is whether you want him to use it from turn 1, not just whether the guy must be able to tap each turn to get it.
I'd say Tidings is pretty good for Baduila because the rolls for men factions are all like >9 and he has no guy with good influence, so he needs to blow a helper card (threats) and this being a combo you don't want to blow it on a bad roll. Swag normal won't do much, but Swag V is a powercard for him, and a perm. so he only needs tap once for it.

So, if you get this from turn one, it offers really great advantages to deckbuilding and management. I'm saying it's a bit big for just a guy, and an alignment that's already stronger than others. If it would be for the avatarless Balrog that would be another matter.

nb. it also doesn't work on Saruman because he's the main guy. Baduila in effect doesn't have to do much other than being present, being strong and avoiding rivers, any strong orc/hill troll can play Threats. If Saruman could grab a card that's useful without him using it, it could work very well actually, he could just squat with Cirdan at Grey Havens. In effect, Baduila can sit with the Balrog and just tap to give -2 hazard each turn for a burning company. Quite the investment, but a great Shadow can suffer it, and he is 3 mp's also, plus he doesn't hit you as agent...

nb. fw retrievers get it in end of turn (most of them), which means you not only need to hold it a full turn, but also estimate which of the options will be more useful! how does that compare with grabbing it any time and from deck?

I see more options:
-Tap in org phase to get from discard. You can make choice to tap him no matter what, but you need hogg in play to get card or have several in deck.
-Tap in site phase or later to get from deck/discard. Opponent gets chance to the tap guy.
-Tap Summons, increase hl by 2 to untap. (or something to counter that power).

Personally I'd go with 2nd option, I don't feel Baduila should need to tap each turn, he can make some effort to remain untapped, he can use the card straight away, and opponent gets his chances to prevent it.

@leader: yes it would be little good if he then needs Orders from the Deamon, that's why I proposed leader that can be in comp. with other leaders. That too good? I think he needs the leader abilty, for tactics and thematics. Also if he's got any plan to be avatar backup, he needs to be leader.
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Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:46 am

Thorsten,

that's what Joe was proposing:

"During the end-of-turn phase, you may tap Baduila to take Swag, Tidings of Death, or The Misty Mountain Deeps into hand from your discard pile."

End of turn phase. :)
Last edited by Jambo on Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:15 pm

Yeah I know, and I was fine with that,was making my point more for you :wink:
But site phase is bit better for him, if you think end of turn is not worth it.
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