Re Plotting Ruin:

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Jambo
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Re Plotting Ruin:

Post by Jambo » Mon May 19, 2008 10:25 am

Re Plotting Ruin, Joe's suggested change is:
Plotting Ruin
Playable if you have at least 7 stage points. All your Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree and Smoke on the Wind are worth full marshalling points if played at a minion site.
According ot the WH rules:
Targeting Site and Resource Cards
A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card.
A minion resource card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.
Do Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree and Smoke on the Wind not target the site at which they're played? :?

marcos
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Post by marcos » Mon May 19, 2008 9:26 pm

that screws one of my already built decks up... i think that the card was ok as it was made in the first time, it opens new (and very curious) strategies.
This way, it is the same as burning sites with some minion company, and minions have bigger characters and don't have the need to play a card that gives them full MPs...

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Mon May 19, 2008 10:14 pm

Nope, they don't target the site. A target is an entity through which an action is played out; neither of these cards plays out any action through the site.

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Post by Frodo » Tue May 20, 2008 5:18 am

I totally forgot about the targeting rule... or did I?

I'm not sure if Smoke targets the site. But if it does, so do cards like Stabbed Him in His Sleep and That's Been Heard Before Tonight. You could easily argue that the effects of these cards are "played out" through the requirement of a freehold.

Can someone ask a judge or check the COE stuff? I'm still waiting on Mark...

If they decide it does NOT target, then the question remains: A) Is it too strong to allow the play of these cards on hero sites? and even if it isn't B) Is it too bizarre and unthematic to allow them to be burned down?

A) is probably more important.

Frodo

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Tue May 20, 2008 8:15 am

Bandobras Took wrote:Nope, they don't target the site. A target is an entity through which an action is played out; neither of these cards plays out any action through the site.
Hi Ben,

Can you explain the reaosning behind this a little more?
Smoke on the Wind wrote:Playable at an already tapped Free-hold during the site phase. The company faces two attacks (Men - 5 strikes with 8 prowess, 1 strike with 10 prowess). If no characters are untapped following the attack, discard this card. Otherwise, you may tap one character in the company and put this card in your marshalling point pile. Discard any factions you have in play that are playable at this site. Cannot be duplicated at a given site.
Underline mine. If something states playable at a free-hold then surely the card is targeting the free-hold. Trying to play this at a hero free-hold would mean the card is targeting a hero site, which it cannot do.

Stabbed him in His Sleep and That's Been Heard Before Tonight are completely different as they are both playable on characters and therefore target characters as opposed to the site in question.

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue May 20, 2008 1:45 pm

The free hold is already tapped. Whatever card tapped it targeted it, because it played out an action (tapping) through the site.

There are several actions associated with the play of Smoke On the Wind:

A) Creating an attack of 5 at 8;
B) Creating an attack of 1 at 10; and
C) Tapping a character.

However, neither of these attacks are even keyed to the site, and tapping the character has nothing to do with the site. This card creates no actions that are played out through the site.

As for card play itself, "Playable at an already tapped Free Hold" is a condition. However, while any targets of a card are active conditions, active conditions are not automatically targets. If the card read "Playable if you tap a Free Hold," it would then target the Free Hold in question as part of its play because there would then be an action that is played out through the entity in question.

Finally, while hero resources may not be used as the condition for minion resources and vice versa, there is no such rule for site alignments. Hero sites may be used as a condition for minion resources so long as no actions of that card are played out through the site.

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Post by Jambo » Tue May 20, 2008 2:39 pm

crf Targets wrote:· A card that is played on a card continuously targets the card it is on.
With regards to this, I guess the subtle difference is that Smoke on the Wind is playable at rather than playable on?

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue May 20, 2008 2:50 pm

Precisely. :)

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Thu May 22, 2008 6:50 am

Finally, while hero resources may not be used as the condition for minion resources and vice versa, there is no such rule for site alignments. Hero sites may be used as a condition for minion resources so long as no actions of that card are played out through the site.
Actually, Mark has written in the draft of the new Universal Rules Book that:
Targeting Site and Resource Cards
A hero resource event card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card.
A minion resource event card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.

NOTE: This rule does not appear as listed here in the rules insert with the booster packs. This rule is correct and should be considered as though it were printed in the rules insert.
Doesn't this change things?

We really need to direct his attention to this post.

Frodo

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Thu May 22, 2008 1:09 pm

The original rule was a resource may not target/affect a cross-alignment resource/site.

This was limited to events. Items, Allies, and Factions may affect cross-alignment things freely.

Smoke on the Wind does not affect the Free Hold it is played at in any way, nor does it target it. It affects other copies of Smoke on the Wind by making them unplayable at a specific Free-Hold, but that's it.

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Fri May 23, 2008 9:22 am

I had another idea for this card:

Plotting Ruin V
Playable if you have at least 7 stage points. Your Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree and Smoke on the Wind are each worth 2 marshalling points.

Or:

Plotting Ruin V
Playable if you have at least 7 stage points. One Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree and one Smoke on the Wind are each worth full marshalling points.

Perhaps either of these or a combination of these would allow us it to keep it affecting hero sites?

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Fri May 23, 2008 1:49 pm

Refresh my memory; why are we changing this card? Is it too easy to successfully play Smoke on the Wind?

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Fri May 23, 2008 2:06 pm

Because FWs can play both of these on hero versions of the sites. This is clearly a much simpler task than trying to play it on a minion version. (Normally these cards are only worth 1 MP.)

As hero versions don't have nasty automatic attacks, the task at hand is considerably easier. Overt FW companies are typically much weaker than regular minion orc and troll companies, and with hero sites much simpler to enter, it's likely one will never see overt FW companies burning and looting...

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Fri May 23, 2008 5:27 pm

Having to go to Minion sites doesn't make it too much harder; Heart Grown Cold and the original plotting ruin merely mean that a character with the home site taps to cancel the automatic attack.

How about "Playable if you have Bad Company in play and at least three orcs or trolls, one of whom is a leader."

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Post by marcos » Fri May 23, 2008 10:38 pm

i think that the card was ok as it was made in the first time, it opens new (and very curious) strategies.
This way, it is the same as burning sites with some minion company, and minions have bigger characters and don't have the need to play a card that gives them full MPs...
I still don't change my mind :)

I think that adding extra requirement should be enough edition on this card to make it balanced...

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