Re Plotting Ruin:

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Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Wed May 28, 2008 6:01 am

Hmm, well, I'll have to study these more thoroughly before weighing in (and scroll back to see people's explanations). I think Jambos' can work even without the negative MP penalties, because you still get more MPs if you declare yourself evil earlier. None of these make it easier for a FW Saruman to get a covet company to minion Bree faster (since you can only have 3 Plotting Ruin in your deck!), save Thorsten's; but even his makes you play Burning Rick to pull it off. And the covert Bree deck is unviable for this very reason of speed, so Thorten's solution would help in just the right way (dedicate more cards of deck to Ricks, thus weakening other strats, to pull trick off).

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed May 28, 2008 10:32 am

Well, I don't suppose this card was ment to boost the Saruman at Bree strategy, though if it gets a boost along the way that's nice, but I do know this: that if you make it a 7 SP requirement and want people to play it early, that's a serious obstacle to deckbuilding, because 7 SP means that you have to pretty much load your deck with stage to be reasonably sure you reach that amount by turn 3. And we all know the amount of clog stage cards give.
So I see these things as conflicting. Either it's a stage you play late for no effect other than boosting your mps, or you play it early for giving you the minion site status.

btw. in my version you can play both Smoke and Rick to get effect at Bree Frodo, so that's 4 copies, and that should be manageable pretty early on, moreover since the first one you can play at a hero site.

I am wondering though what effect it could have on other strategies, like Great Hunt/burning strategy, since Great Hunt typically wants to play alot of weapons and uses wizards fire etc. alot.

btw. Frodo, Black Numenorians helps minion characters, so how can it help badbeards? I will never forget the fuss I had at rules section over the fact that overt FW company is not minion and can just attack you at a haven. :wink:
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Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Wed May 28, 2008 10:42 am

Ah, the stage point requirement should be dropped. It's a hangover from the first version that shouldn't be there.

I do think the stage points PR gives should be the same. PR is a card with seriously bad undertones, making Fallen-wizards truly Badbeards..

By the way, mine doesn't necessitate it too be played that early. You just want to be able to play one Burning or Smoke after it has played to reap rewards (and/or lessen the penalty).

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu May 29, 2008 11:06 am

But if you do want to play it early to gain its minion site effect, then you need 3 copies in deck and you waste 2. I understand it's an evil card, though plotting the ruin itself is not as evil as carrying through the evil. Most general stage that are played for some direct effect (other than mp modification, no mp sources) have low sp's, so you can start with them if you want. Other option would be to give it an alternative use as short-event: tap agent character at site to cancel an auto or attack from Smoke/Rick.

thinking of this last thing, wouldn't it be cool to have a card that gives you bonus if you have an agent -the hazard version- at the site. Normally as FW you can't play Grimbu etc., but maybe you can have them work for you as hazards and still play resources based on their presence! :D
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Post by Jambo » Thu May 29, 2008 12:14 pm

You could have it worth 1 SP initially so it could be played as a starting stage card, and then have the SPs increase to 3 or 4 say when any site is burned to the ground.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu May 29, 2008 2:13 pm

yes, good one, 1 sp plus 1 for every Smoke/Rick you have in play...or something like that. We can't mess with the 3 sp on the card, or can we?
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Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:37 am

>>btw. Frodo, Black Numenorians helps minion characters, so how can it help badbeards? I will never forget the fuss I had at rules section over the fact that overt FW company is not minion and can just attack you at a haven. Wink

Oops! I forgot; the original version (or perhaps only the conception) for this card DID allow non-minion characters to play it (since we thought we could boost FWs), but of course we then saw it would be much too strong for regular heroes.

Yes, as Thorsten showed in one version, let’s not leave out the hero havens.

Okay, how does these hopefully close-to-final versions look? I took some of our ideas and made them a little simpler since they were getting rather wordy and complicated.

New Plotting Ruin: Version 1
[1 SP]
If your site is discarded where your Burning Rick, Cot and Tree or Smoke on the Wind was played, place the site instead with this card:
Your companies must use minion sites for Border-holds, Free-holds, and hero havens and this card now gives 3 Stage Points. This card is worth 1 MP for each site with it. Cannot be duplicated by a given player.
The above version gives you “one free burn” before you must start using minion versions. I think it easier, visually, to make the card worth 3 SP rather than an ascending value since the original is worth 3 SP; face-to-face players can just look at that number. However, if we really prefer the ascending value I guess we can do that too. Finally, shouldn’t the company become overt at some point, or is that not necessary?

Okay, the problem with the above version is that the placing of sites with PR option looks cool, but it doesn’t distinguish point-wise between Rick and Smoke! So here’s another version:

New Plotting Ruin: Version 2
[1 SP]
If you have a Burning Rick, Cot and Tree or Smoke on the Wind in play, your companies must use minion sites for Border-holds, Free-holds and Hero havens. Place any subsequent Burning Rick, Cot and Tree and Smoke on the Wind with this card instead of in your marshalling point pile: they are worth full marshalling points and this card gives 3 Stage Points. Cannot be duplicated by a given player.
New Plotting Ruin: Version 3
[3 SP]
Playable as a starting stage card; or playable if you have at least 5 stage points. If you have at least one Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree in play, your companies must use minion sites for Border-holds, Free-holds, and hero havens. If you have at least one Smoke on the Wind in play, your companies are considered overt. Place any subsequent Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree and Smoke on the Wind with this card: they are worth full marshalling points. Cannot be duplicated by a given player.
Regarding the above version, I don’t think it’s too high an SP requirement, and it’s slightly easier, SP-wise, than the old vanilla version of Plotting Ruin (which it should be).

After looking over these 3 versions, I like Version 3 (a revision of Jambo’s first suggestion) the best, followed by version 2 (a revision of Thorsten’s). But I think this version does everything Thorsten’s does while allowing for more flexibility in deck design. (I still like my old version too, but I’m only listing these for now.)

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Post by Jambo » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:05 am

I like version 3. There's only one thing -

With 3 stage points, there's not going to be any room to play Bad Company from the start, and so this card will only be used by covert companies.

"This card is only considered to give 1 stage point for the purposes of starting stage resources."

Although I must admit, I've no idea if something like this is possible within the realms of GCCG.

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Post by Jambo » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:24 am

Just had a thought:
[3 SP]
You may take this card from your play deck into your hand when you play Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree or Smoke on the Wind. If you have at least one Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree in play, your companies must use minion sites for Border-holds, Free-holds, and hero Havens. If you have at least one Smoke on the Wind in play, your companies are considered overt. Place any subsequent Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree and Smoke on the Wind with this card: they are worth full marshalling points. Cannot be duplicated by a given player.
Does this (partially) solve the stage points problem? Of course, if you draw and play a burning card first, it's only ever going to be worth 1MP. It does however, allow you to bring this card immediately to your hand...

There's another similar idea to this:
[3 SP]
Playable during any phase. You may take this card from your play deck into your hand when you play Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree or Smoke on the Wind. If you have at least one Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree in play, your companies must use minion sites for Border-holds, Free-holds, and hero Havens. If you have at least one Smoke on the Wind in play, your companies are considered overt. Place any subsequent Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree and Smoke on the Wind with this card: they are worth full marshalling points. Cannot be duplicated by a given player.
Making this card playable at any time (i.e. no longer just the org phase) means it would presumably even allow you to play PR before the burning card had fully resolved, i.e between the first and second attacks - thus giving you the full MPs. Correct? Or does annotation 24 and its amendment ruin this idea?

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:20 pm

If you play it as starting stage counting as 1 sp, you effectively start with 5 sp's, I don't like that. Get from deck if you play Rick/Smoke is nice option, though you should be able to play it any time, or get it any time, otherwise you're stuck with it for a full turn.

Since first Rick/Smoke is worth only 1, I proposed to make card worth 1 mp if there are cards with it, is that not correct?

Isn't there some unclearity in formulating it like, if you split the effects for Rick/Smoke, people might not be sure when the 'any subsequent' clause will apply for which card, i.e. after Rick any subsequent Rick, after Smoke any subsequent Smoke, or after Rick/Smoke any subsequent Rick/Smoke.

I don't think you can play it between resolving attacks on the card. Since card says: any subsequent Rick/Smoke, I suppose the first one will always be only 1 mp.
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Post by Jambo » Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:26 pm

Something like this then:
[3 SP]
Playable during any phase. You may take this card from your play deck into your hand when you play Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree or Smoke on the Wind. If you have at least one Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree in play, your companies must use minion sites for Border-holds, Free-holds, and hero Havens. If you have at least one Smoke on the Wind in play, your companies are considered overt. Place any subsequent Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree and Smoke on the Wind with this card: they are worth full MPs and this card is worth 1 MP. Cannot be duplicated by a given player.
Do we still want Joe's 5 stage point requirement?

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Post by marcos » Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:13 pm

i still like the original version... I don't like extensive texts for such a simple card...

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:22 pm

I agree with Marcos; we're trying to fix something that I'm still having a hard time seeing as a problem.

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:27 am

Hmm... maybe Marcos and Bandobras are right.

Let's revisit the issues:

1) Is burning down non-minion sites a problem? If not, then we don't need these elaborate formulations that allow an FW player more flexibility depending on whether he wants to go the covert Burning Rick way or overt Smoke way. Even if it is a problem, we don't necessarily need to split hairs.
2) Is drawing up PR and getting it in play a problem?
3) Is being non-overt, always, a problem?

Joe's thoughts:
1) I originally thought number 1 was a problem thematically and balance-wise. I no longer think it's a problem thematically, especially since you can do it anyway, even without PR! And I think Thorsten presented a case why it's not even that strong balance-wise.
2) Not really, as far as I can see.
3) This one I still have an opinion on. I think a company that wants full points from these cards should have to pay for that "infamy" by *declaring themselves overt to the world* at some point, even if it's not until the last turn.

Thus, I'll present my old revised version one more time. This is pretty much the same as the original Plotting Ruin, save that you now have the flexibility of early overt status, or you can be covert until the end and possibly face a revengeful hero attack. I'm also lowering the stage point requirements to 5, because I believe this makes the card more tempting for those decks looking for a new way to get overt status (original PR requires 7 SP, which is very difficult to get quickly, but 5 means you just have to play what is usually one more stage card after your start-of-the-game status), and therefore slightly more flexible than before.

Plotting Ruin
Quote:
Playable if you have at least 5 SP. Your Burning Rick Cot and Tree and Smoke on the Wind are worth full points. If you have at least one Burning Rick Cot and Tree or Smoke on the Wind in play, all of your companies are considered overt.
Can everyone weigh in once more? (Especially any lurkers who haven't commented yet.) We might have to call this to a vote.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:58 am

As non lurker I will keep it short.
Balance/playwise no problem.
Themewise yes problem, agree with Frodo.

Then I guess it comes down to this: what is the problem with the proposal for PR making company overt? You really think a minion site burning (semi)strat is not viable for FW's? Or is it just you want to keep twisted options/tricks open?
I think it is viable, and I think one twisted burn is ok too, though we have to aknowledge that combining the burn of both hero and minion sites is even more difficult than burning only one type.
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