Adunaphel Unleashed

[Bandobras Took]

Marcos and I talked about this a bit, and the additional tapping ability isn't too exciting for Adunaphel for the following reasons:

1) The basic trouble involved in moving to an opponent's site;
2) If you have an active RW, you want them to DO something during the site phase, but Adunaphel is notoriously vulnerable to Rivers, Lost in Free-Domains, etc, so you're wasting your RWs movement to try and tap two characters outside of the site phase, so there's no chance to influence them or attack them;
3) Your opponent's characters are extremely likely to be tapped. If they are already tapped, they cannot be tapped, and the clause "may not untap" will not apply to them.

After bouncing out a few ideas, Marcos and I thought of this one:

Adunaphel Unleashed

Short Event or Permanent Event

As a short event, untap Adunaphel. As a permanent event, one target male character may be in a company with Adunaphel. May also be played on an opponent's male character -- make a roll and add target character's CPs. If the result is greater than his mind, he joins Adunaphel's company, and all cards controlled by him may be transferred to other characters in his former company. May not be duplicated, but may be transferred.

We thought Middle Earth deserved a Seductress, that active Adunaphel would be both jealous and fickle with her men, and that the tapping two opponent's characters was of too little practical use.

Or, as I put it, "STEAL Aragorn from that Elven wench!"

[marcos]

"cannot be duplicated as a permanent event"

i guess you will still want to untap her after you got her boy

[Bandobras Took]

Oh, right.

[Frodo]

Wow, guys! I have to say, that's a pretty cool idea for a card.

A few thoughts:
--Do you think it should also be playable on a non-elf? Certainly a non-avatar, as well.
--Let's add "corruption points and attached stage points".
--I don't like the idea of people taking his allies, events, and items before he leaves. If he's corrupted to follow Sauron/Adunaphel, I'm sure he'd take his belongings with him. I really like how this also directly represents the tempting of Frodo by the Ringwraiths at the river crossing to Rivendell.
--I'd like the taking of the character to involve a little more preparation that one roll and some CC. Since she IS influencing them, why not turn this into a standard influence check? You will probably have to write something like "...greater than character's mind plus 5." Of course, corruption should still work against the character. But let's think this out a little--is it too easily defended against by free GI? (We could simply write that free GI bonuses do not count.)

Btw, I just had a sweet idea: somebody make a new thread for Magical Harp (V) quick!! And put something there like this:
"Playable as a minion resource by Adunaphel only. This item affects Adunaphel. If on Adunaphel, +5 direct influence against opponent's male characters (except avatars). You may tap this card to take Adunaphel Unleashed into hand from reserve deck."

--Frodo

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Hmm, it's one thing for ICE to invent some nazgul siren, it's another to start stealing key characters, thematically this is really mambo jambo, the wraiths only invoke fear and dread, not love, no matter how you play the harp. A nazgul playing a harp, just the thought alone is utterly rediculous.

But, let's go with the idea. Then I'd suggest: a man/dunadan male character (or lesbian, like Peath), becomes a follower of Aduni (if we can bend the rules once more) rather than char in comp., and a flattery attempt: cp's/stage plus roll (minus 2 for dunadan) greater than mind plus something or gi.

or perhaps, a seduction roll: you must sing a song and the tourney judge or players on another table must award you points.

can we not just take out the tap requirement for Aduni? I like this card's effect actually.

[Jambo]

Whilst we're berrating Adunaphel's inability to circumvent Rivers and Lost in Free Domains, it's worth remembering that Adunaphel Unleashed's alternative use doesn't actually require the site phase...

I must admit I'm not overly convinced on the alignment switching proposal. It's a bit heavy on the fantasy. Adunaphel as Wraith isn't going to be doing much luring.

I perhaps wouldn't mind a more attractive (pardon the pun) additional use for this card, but maybe it could be less seductress-like?

What about Adunaphel can initiate CvCC or influence a faction, ally, etc, during the end of turn phase?

[Bandobras Took]

He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? --LotR II

While it's a given that RWs aren't attractive and inspire fear, they are also devotees of their master's philosophy of dominating and breaking minds.

@Frodo
Why should elves be immune? The key factor is the strength of will of the target. What is there about Orophin that makes him less vulnerable than Aragorn?

Since the roll requires it to be greater than a character's mind, Avatars are already immune. You can't have a roll greater than an attribute that doesn't exist any more than you can win a race that hasn't been held yet.

The idea of him leaving behind the cards he controls is more of a gameplay/balance thing: if you can already screw your opponent out of a character, you're doing them sufficient damage.

If you make it an influence check, she'll still need some way of doing it during the site phase unless we follow Jambo's suggestion of making her able to do it outside the site phase.

Even if doing it to the opponent's character comes to naught (to bad, stealing Buth from the Balrog would be kind of fun, too), I'd still like the ability for her to choose one specific man to travel around with her.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

You are referring here to Frodo, who is wearing the ring of Sauron and has just been stabbed by a morgul blade...

Elves (in 3rd age) don't seek the power to dominate others, they even hated to keep Gollum a prisoner. But the lure that you are discribing is the lure of power, glory and of everlasting life. If so, then women should be just as vulnerable. (heck Adunaphel gave in to the same lure you are describing). But elves, hobbits and dwarves have other ideals in life and don't fear death as much as men. I do think the nazgul can numb someone with fear so much that they give in to it and become slaves to their will. This has nothing to do with seduction however. Perhaps when they were still men, they had the power to seduce, but as wraiths they don't.

[Bandobras Took]

Actually, it's Frodo on Amon Hen, but oh well.

[Frodo]

So we are suggesting that the card targets Man characters only? That would go in line what the RWs themselves once were.

Also, what's the difference between making opponent's character a follower and making them part of your company?

I think we naysayers are taking the seduction idea too literally. You can be seduced by power, you can be seduced by guilt, you can even be seduced by fear. In literature there is a long line of women who are considered both evil and dangerous, yet somehow appear attractful in what they're offering. Consider the book's descriptions (and the film's overdoing of it) of how when people are possessed by avarice, usually after examining the ring, their actual appearances change into something more orc-like. It's easy to imagine a Nazgul having the power to appear both frightening and yet alluring somehow, to somehow who is under his/her spell. Case in point: Wormtongue. (Btw, don't some texts depict the sirens as actually being ugly hags, but their MUSIC makes the men think they are beautiful? This is exactly the metaphor aimed for.) Admittedly, there is no such thing as a female RW persay in the novel, nor is the "siren" aspect of them developed so much, but it's not that difficult to imagine; Galadriel's temptation moment comes to mind, when she announces my favorite line in the book ("All shall love me, and despair!") Why else would famed artist R. Guay choose to depict Adunaphel with a harp? She's obviously thinking of the same interesting connotations of evil.

So for me, the issue to consider is balance. Regarding that: if we make one RW so powerful that in CVCC he is likely to kill at least one of opponent's main characters, what's wrong with making another so powerful that she can steal one?

Frodo

[Bandobras Took]

Perhaps a "If Not In Fell Rider Mode" would be a sufficient thematic drawback.

[Frodo]

Hee hee... very funny Ben.

We could also make say that you cannot make an attack against the company that turn, though perhaps that's not necessary.

Frodo

[Thorsten the Traveller]

like I said, the fact that ICE envisions some luring female nazgul, doesn't mean it would actually exist in Tolkiens world. Anyway, if there is no opposite-sex enchantment involved somehow, why would it only appeal to men? Does a ringwraith even have a gender? Galadriel btw is no slave to Sauron. Nuff said, this is all pure fantasy.

Difference between killing and stealing is big if you can choose who you're stealing, if you can avoid combat, if you have to make two rolls to succeed.
If you make him part of comp. rather than RW follower, he can exist outside of RW company I suppose. So I would make him RW follower like other RW's. Or do we think you have to accomodate the 9 mind of Aragorn after you've lured him? even stranger.

[Bandobras Took]

Ah, but this argument "doesn't mean it would actually exist" can be applied to approximately 95% of the Middle Earth stuff, starting with five uncorrupted wizards.

Galadriel may not have been a servant of Sauron, but she sure didn't go back with the rest of the elves to Valinor until after she had proven herself by foreswearing the Ring.

With the Wizards, there was a clear way to give each of them a theme based on either the books or the Valar. For gameplay reasons, you want a separate theme for each Nazgul, but such territory is largely unexplored; we read that they were kings of men, great sorcerers, but not much else. In the name of gameplay one attempts to give each Ringwraith a unique twist.

How much autonomy the RWs have is open for debate, but that each has a personality still is evident -- why else is the Witch-King their captain? If there were a female Nazgul, I would not put it past her to spend time corrupting males and destroying them, especially if she herself is lost to the world of warmth and light.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Only info on any nazgul we have is that Witch-king was first and leader of the army, and a sorcerer. Doesn't mean he has any personality, in fact the RW's are at all times subject to Saurons will and do all at his bidding, that is the essence of being ringwraith. It is often said that their cries are but an expression of their own fear and agony of being neither dead nor living and having no real existence outside the will of Sauron. They might once have had strong personality, now actually they have none.

But, agreed on the purpose and usefulness of some personality for the game. Developing it doesn't need to be cross alignment though, there is a difference between hero and minion characters for a reason. All we have as a lead is the Aduni unleashed card made by ICE. The companion (or guide, always get these mixed) describes her an ambitious woman, but not as femme fatale. She could have influence bonus vs. men (the gender), lead an army of amazones, or she could negate the female bonus vs. nazgul, not being a man herself: right back at yah! (the prophesy was only for WK after all). Just some random thoughts.

btw. Galadriel did not return out of her own ambition and some vanity, that's true, and ambition and vanity can be very appealing to others. But, she was self-made woman, and magnificent, while nazguls are subjects and wretched.