Adunaphel Unleashed

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Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Fri May 30, 2008 9:28 am

In fact, I'd much prefer the requirement for Adunaphel to tap than the requirement for site phase. Removing site phase removes the River issue, and it also frees up Adunaphel to perform this task as a single character company. Tapping her is something both hazard and resource player can do something about:

Resource:
Pack 3 x Ruse for a lone Scout and if we allow the card to be duplicated ON Adunaphel we're nearly there. If you're worried there's also The Ring Leaves Its Mark

Hazard:
Anything that can cause her to tap or become wounded. There's a wealth of creatures which will do this and the hazard player can make sure his own companies are at suitable locations to achieve this.

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:42 pm

Cards that require a site can still be played in the end-of-turn (or any other time) without entering the site (unless you wish to play it during the site phase). For example, you could move Aragorn tapped and alone to Minas Tirith, have a River played on you, then play Return of the King during the End-of-turn phase, and lift his finger at the River.

I don’t have any thematic issues with ring-using, and at this point I don’t think it would be too overpowered for a RW to benefit from them, however this might not be a strategy that Adunaphel really needs.

Hmm, I see your point Jambo about trying to make the defending player be a little more creative than just hunting for his River. Okay, let’s try to keep the tap to iniate AU option (but not the “keep tapped to keep AU’s effect” clause). The thing is, I like the idea of the opponent being able to do what he normally does when trying to get away from a minion chase deck—hide at a hero site with a tough minion automatic-attack. If we are trying to nerf River for Adunaphel, how can we do this without nerfing other opponent strategies as well, such as the above?

Wait a minute. I just realized something… ignore my previous paragraph. Moving to a well-defended hero site is still a good option, because to initiate CVCC against the entranced hero character requires entering the site! Okay, I feel more comfortable with Jambo’s option now. I don’t see a reason to include the clause “character does not untap normally” anymore, though; isn’t being stuck at the site enough?

I haven’t consider the anti-minion use of this card. Can somehow do an analysis?

Does specifying a lone Adunaphel counter the untapping power of this card? Explain?

Btw, Rivers aside, if Adunaphel becomes wounded, the whole AU strategy isn’t necessarily shot to pieces, which I like. She only needs one lost turn to heal (and an untapper) to start her flirtations again.

How’s this new version, then? Any other opinions on the “cannot be duplicated” option? I know that I don’t like the idea of her potentially freezing two hero characters at the same site. I’m still not crazy about the perm-event idea either, unless it’s needed for deck balance.

Adunaphel Unleashed V:
Permanent-event.
Discard to untap Adunaphel.
Alternatively, you may tap Adunaphel to place this card with opponent’s tapped non-avatar, non-magic-using character at the same site. Dark-enchantment: Character may not move. If placed on opponent's character, discard this card if Adunaphel is wounded or moves. Cannot be duplicated.
Frodo

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:04 am

Adunaphel will generally be alone, although we the new TRT there's always the slight possibility that Uvatha might join her at some point. It is something we could specify on the card and that would tie in quite nicely with the vanilla version of AU which is also for Adunaphel as a lone character. Plus it's believable that such an ability would be something Adunaphel would perform alone anyway. In other words I like the idea.

As to vs minion, well, that would be too powerful since a minion character can't wound Adunaphel in CvCC, and so the only way to relieve the spell would be to hope Adunaphel moves or you can wound her with your creatures (an unlikely event). The untapping effect of this card is powerful anyway, so i'm not sure it'll matter too much whether the second part works vs minion or not. In light of this being for hero/FW characters only is there any reason for retaining the non-magic part?

I do kind of the like the unable to untap part since if your opponents characters are squatting at a wizardhaven Adunaphel can still have some impact. Otherwise, it's going to be completely useless against characters squatting at wizardhavens.

We will also need to specify that it's Adunaphel as your Ringwraith. Something like this perhaps:
Permanent-event.
Playable on Adûnaphel (as your Ringwraith). Discard to untap Adûnaphel.
Alternatively, you may tap a lone Adûnaphel to place this card with opponent’s tapped non-Wizard, non-minion character at the same site. Dark-enchantment: Character may not untap or move. If placed on opponent's character, discard this card if Adûnaphel is wounded or moves. Cannot be duplicated.
There are various ways one can do the not able to be duplicated part if you want to retain some flexibility for Aduanphel to have multiple copies on herself. For instance: "Cannot be duplicated on an opponent's company" springs to mind as being interesting and would prevent hand-clog. If deemed too much of an advantage, one could add "Playable on Adunaphel at a site" so that she can't drop them down during the m/h phase. E.g.:
Permanent-event.
Playable on Adûnaphel (as your Ringwraith) at a site. Discard to untap Adûnaphel.
Alternatively, you may tap a lone Adûnaphel to place this card with opponent’s tapped non-Wizard, non-minion character at the same site. Dark-enchantment: Character may not untap or move. If placed on opponent's character, discard this card if Adûnaphel is wounded or moves. Cannot be duplicated in an opponent’s company.
I must admit I actually prefer the possibilities of this second version as it's more likely to encourage the secondary use. If it's unable to be duplicated on Adunaphel and players draw a second version they'll be tempted to blow the first to untap just so the second can be played. :)

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:55 pm

If it's unable to be duplicated on Adunaphel and players draw a second version they'll be tempted to blow the first to untap just so the second can be played.
And that's what we would like to see, right? That's why I would suggest non duplicable on Adunaphel also (next to non duplicable on opponent), because then the card is half perm half short event, which mitigates a bit the power of it being a perm.
not playable in mh phase is stronger still than the above, you can still drop 3 in any other phase. Since Adunaphel would be alone, untapping her in mh phase is not that big a deal either.

I like the lone Aduni clause. Or maybe can add: if not alone, discard follower. Can't enchant two guys at same time :wink:

I also like the 'not untapping as normal' clause, for reason Jambo mentions, okay it makes it stronger, but look at it like this: if played against a squatter, not moving makes no difference, and if played against a mover, not untapping makes a bit less of a difference since he probably can't play stuff anyway there (his buddies will have played it)

The magic part is only two words, and there are many fw characters who can use magic, so why not keep it, it's thematic? Also nice reward for playing Arcane School, one of my favourite cards.
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Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:52 am

I also don't like the idea of stacking multiple AUs on her. The other suggestions sound perfect.

I agree her normal ability against minions would be too strong; consider how close she starts to their companies as well. However, I wish there was some ability we could give her against minions. What if we added: "If on a minion, character does not untap normally during the next untap phase instead; then discard this card." Would this still be useful?

Otherwise, I think we're done! Here is the final version:
Permanent-event.
Playable on Adûnaphel (as your Ringwraith). Discard to untap Adûnaphel. Cannot be duplicated on Adunaphel.
Alternatively, tap a lone Adûnaphel (as your Ringwraith) to place this card with opponent’s tapped non-Wizard, non-minion character at the same site. Dark-enchantment: Character may not untap or move. If placed on opponent's character, discard this card if Adûnaphel is wounded or moves. Cannot be duplicated in opponent’s company.
Let me know about the minion ability.

Frodo

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:29 am

I need to clarify something regarding this card -

Is the intention for the card to always be played on Adunaphel first, after which it can be discarded to untap her or she can tap to transfer it?

Or, is the intention for it to have two distinct playability conditions which aren't related in any way? i.e. if played on Adunaphel it can only be used to untap and the placing of it on an opponent's character can only come from the hand.

My thoughts had always been it was the former. If this is the case, then I'd suggest re-wording slightly to remove this ambiguity:
Permanent-event.
Playable on Adûnaphel (as your Ringwraith). Discard this card to untap Adûnaphel.
Alternatively, you may tap a lone Adûnaphel to place this card with opponent’s tapped non-Wizard, non-minion character at the same site. Dark-enchantment: Character may not untap or move. If placed on opponent's character, discard this card if Adûnaphel is wounded or moves.
Cannot be duplicated on Adûnaphel or in an opponent’s company.

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:34 am

In terms of the vs minion part, I don't really have much opinion. If playing Adunaphel vs minion, I'd be more likely to use her for resource gathering or haven squatting (using the untap ability) rather than chasing my opponent's minion company around keeping a character tapped. The lack of CvCC or being able to do any real damage puts paid to that. Plus it's not really thematic to have it any other way.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:57 am

Jambo's right, tapping minion for one turn is not enough reward for your troubles. Maybe you can play it on a guy squatting at your haven though, or in final turn if you have a keen eye, I mean it doesn't hurt either to have it on the card...

I have no preference towards either transferring the card or playing it directly on opponent. Transferring is a bit easier, but in practise you will 80% of the time have to use your dropped AU to untap her, so result is the same.
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Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:12 am

Transferring is better for the card by a long way. As a perm-event, almost everyone will drop it immediately, and if it can't be transferred then imho we'll rarely see the secondary effect.

In terms of using her card and getting Adunaphel to the site untapped, you'll need to pack 3 x Ruse and perhaps some combat boosters for the auto attack.

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:09 am

Jambo's wording looks fine.

Frodo

marcos
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Post by marcos » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:26 pm

thumbs up :!:

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:48 am

current version reads 'may not untap'. I once proposed 'does not untap during untap phase.' This way you can still untap by other means. I think this would be better, because then you can untap a female who's been enchanted, and attack Aduni, so there's a danger to her as well. Or does the enchantment simply come with never untapping?

thoughts?

of course can add: if character is female, you may tap Aragorn to untap her :lol: (sleeping beauty)
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Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:46 am

Hmm... my first thought is, does it matter? What are the odds that it will be a female, and that opponent will have an untapping card? (In fact, the most likely untapping card that not showing on table already would have to be An Forth He Hastened, unless someone is going to go escort a Cram all the way to sleeping beauty for her to eat.)

I admit that in the few cases that it could happen, it would represent a nice surprise. However, this would mean that people squatting at havens could solve this whole Adunaphel problem by merely sacrificing a Cram or a Healing Herbs OR (most likely in FW decks especially) using the ability of that ubiquitous haven untapper, Halls of Fire. Do we really want Cram and Halls of Fire to nerf Adunaphel? I would say No.

Frodo

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:53 am

no, chances are not big, but it gives defender some option. If there is a female present, Aduni would be wise to tap her, if she would take the risk at all...

What do you mean by 'nerf Adunaphel'? character could untap and then tap once, nothing more. She can't move to hero haven anyway, if he squats at a fw haven he's likely to be there doing multiple stuffs, HoF is easily dealt with by Eye of Sauron V, maybe he sits alone so she can attack him every turn...so nerf?
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Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:38 am

I'd say leave it as it is, simply for the Hall of Fire reason alone.

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