Curiosity: Helms of Iron

[Konrad Klar]

Playable only if you have a Nazgûl permanent-event in play. Discard the Nazgûl when this card is brought into play. All Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with body have their body modified by +1; and all Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with no body have 4 body. ...on the front of their iron hems was an S-rune, wrought of some white metal.-LotRIII

So what will be body of Orc, Troll, and Man attack that normally has no body if single copy of Helms of Iron is in play (and all actions from it will successfully resolve)?
Answer: 5.

At first glance answer would be "4", but it is not correct.
When Orc, Troll, and Man attack with no body appears in play and is faced it causes declaration of "all Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with no body have 4 body".
But when this action successfully resolve then Orc, Troll, and Man attack with body appears in play and this in turn causes declaration of "All Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with body have their body modified by +1".

Please note that this situation is different from that what happens in case of Minions Stir.

The number of strikes and prowess of each Orc and Troll attack is increased by one (by two for Orcs if Doors of Night is in play). Cannot be duplicated. ...for in the gloom the Shadow Host seemed to grow stronger and more terrible to look upon.-LotRV

In case of Minions Stir there is a single action, activated by Orc and Troll attack, that resolves differently when Doors of Night is in play, or when Doors of Night is not in play. In case of Helms of Iron there are two actions, one activated by presence in play of "All Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with body", other activated by "all Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with no body".

[Mordakai]

Let's see the card:



I have read your post, and I disagree from rour reasoning, and this is why;

First, it seems that the card is not intended to be played that way. Of course, you can disagree with this because it's just "a feeling", and not a real ruling, but:

Second: As far as I know, card effects are applyed only once to each chain of effects, so if you play and orc attack with minions stir in play, the effect of increasing prowess and number of attacks is applyed only once (either +1 or +2, I don't care). When Helms of Iron is in play, as you apply effects in the order they are written in the card, you should add +1 to the body (should it exist), and after that, if no body, then body 4 is given. As you still don't have body in the first step, then you gain only the second effect.

My 2 cents...

[Konrad Klar]

Second: As far as I know, card effects are applyed only once to each chain of effects, so if you play and orc attack with minions stir in play, the effect of increasing prowess and number of attacks is applyed only once (either +1 or +2, I don't care).

I would say: an action caused by passive condition is invoked only once for occurance of passive condition.
So e.g. company moving in appropriate regions is not attacked by the same Dragon Ahunt multiple times in the same M/H phase.
Your example with Minions Stir is valid too.

There is example of other card that creates action and this action (if resolved) in turn activates another action from the same card.
Spider of Morlath (as permanent-event).

No need to repeat that in case Helms of Iron there are two different conditions that cause two different actions.
I can only call attention to this fact. Everybody is able to read text of card carefully.

[Mordakai]

I understand your reasoning with the spider of Morlat, but I see a different case with that one:



The spider of Morlat gives spider attacks +1 strike, and also will create a spider attack if someone moves though Mirkwood. Whenever the attack is triggered, you check for modifiers and apply them, and Spider of Morlat gives it +1 strike, so de facto the attack will always be 3 strikes, not just 2.

In Helms of Iron, you create an attack (using a creature, triggering an auto attack or whatever) and check for modifiers: as Helms is in play, first we check if it has body, and if yes, give it +1. After that, we check for body again, and if not, then give body 4 to it. As the attack has no body, first effect does nothing, and then the second one gives it body 4. But you have already checked for the first effect, you cannot claim it again. The fact that in first place the +1 to body effect did nothing to the attack does not mean it has not been checked.

Anyway, I'm not a rules-lawyer, but it's nice to activate this forum from time to time

[Konrad Klar]

My point:
Mere attack of Orc, Troll, and Man does not activate any action from Helm of Iron. Attack of Orc, Troll, and Man with body activates action "+1 to body", attack of Orc, Troll, and Man with no body activates action "have 4 body". Two distinct conditions and two distinct actions. In case of Minions Stir: one condition and action that resolves differently when DoN is/is not in play.

If three copies of Helm of Iron are in play and attack of Orc, Troll, and Man with no body happens, then three actions "have 4 body" are declared.
Last declared ("have 4 body" #3) resolves first an gives the attack body 4. Two remaining fizzle - passive condition "attack of Orc, Troll, and Man with no body" does not exist at resolution.

Once when "have 4 body" #3 is resolved, the condition Attack of Orc, Troll, and Man with body is in play and three actions "+1 to body" are declared in next chain of effects.

P.S.
As person who pretend to be rules-lawyer I'm glad that questions I'm raising are not obvious.

[Bandobras Took]

Frankly, I've never understood why Rank is Passive in the first place, so I'm staying out of this one.

[Dragonmaster]

One Helms of Iron gives the Man, Orc, Troll creature without a body a body of 4 and not 5. Following the card text, the sentence should be read as a whole as there is an 'and' in between. You can't go back and forth as you like.

So in case of 3 Helms of Iron, the stack has 3 times: "All Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with body have their body modified by +1; and all Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with no body have 4 body." and must be read in that order.
Resulting the attack in a body of 6.

Just my 2 cts.

[Konrad Klar]

Frankly, I've never understood why Rank is Passive in the first place, so I'm staying out of this one.

Have you some concept, how to handle situation, when in middle of attack Rank upon Rank (if its bonus would be continous effect, not action caused by passive condition) is discarded?
Decrerase number of already assigned strikes? Forbid to discard Rank upon Rank?

[Konrad Klar]

One Helms of Iron gives the Man, Orc, Troll creature without a body a body of 4 and not 5. Following the card text, the sentence should be read as a whole as there is an 'and' in between. You can't go back and forth as you like.

So in case of 3 Helms of Iron, the stack has 3 times: "All Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with body have their body modified by +1; and all Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with no body have 4 body." and must be read in that order.
Resulting the attack in a body of 6.

Just my 2 cts.

For each company at or moving to an Under-deeps site, the hazard limit is increased by one and the prowess of all attacks is increased by one. All automatic-attacks at sites in the following regions have their number of strikes and prowess increased by one (by two if Doors of Night is in play): Angmar, Gap of Isen, Gorgoroth, Gundabad, High Pass, Redhorn Gate, Rohan, Southern Mirkwood, and Udûn. Cannot be duplicated.

Bold mine.

Read it as whole or as you like, but "the hazard limit is increased by one" and "the prowess of all attacks is increased by one" are separate actions. They are not?
Being at or moving to Under-deeps site in M/H phase is one thing and facing attack while moving to/being at Under-deeps site is other thing. A word "and" in between does not make them the one big thing. Word "and" is not super glue.

[Konrad Klar]

...even not speaking about semicolon in between.

[Mordakai]

The word "and" is precisely the one that makes the two effects different. It happens X and Y means that first comes X and after that comes Y, two separate effects. When you play and orc/troll/man attack, you check X (have body? Yes= +1 body, no=nothing happens) and then check Y (have body? Yes=nothing happens, no=now you have body 4).
If you repeat that "programming sentence" tree times (do you say thrice?) then an Orc Lieutenant (example) would end with body 6, not 7:
You play an Orc Lieutenant. An Orc attack is created, so you now check for modifiers already in play:
Helms 1: X: Body? No=nothing happens | Y: Body? No=now body 4
Helms 2: X: Body? yes, 4= body +1, now 5 | Y: Body? Yes=nothing happens
Helms 3: X: Body? yes, 5= body +1, now 6 | Y: Body? Yes=nothing happens

Acting this way you check all the cards just once each one.

The Spider of Morlat is also checked only once, but the order is different. It creates the effect of +1 strikes to spider attacks, and the effect to trigger and spiders attack if something happens later (walking through Mirkwood). When that happens, as an attack has just been created, it checks all the effects that can affect it, and the +1 strike of the Spider of Morlat is one of them.

About Drums, I don't get your point. For me there are two different effects in the first sentence (increasing hazard limit AND increasing prowess, A and B, A & B, A + B, as you like, two effects), but I fail to imagine a situation in which this specific case would raise some conflict in the game...

[Konrad Klar]

The word "and" is precisely the one that makes the two effects different. It happens X and Y means that first comes X and after that comes Y, two separate effects.

I cannot agree that "It happens X and Y" must mean any order. If X and Y are not actions that happen at resolution it does not mean.
Just like in case Spider of Morlath - it may modify any spider attack, not only that from Spider of Morlath. And at resolution of Spider of Morlath none of this actions happens.

Your "programming sequence" is based on assumption that check "have body/does not have body" happens when action from Helm of Iron is resolved, just like in case of action from Minions Stir presence of Doors of Night is checked.

Again I cannot agree that "and" means "else", or "if previous fails", or "otherwise".

Text of Helms of Iron is worded:
"All Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with body have their body modified by +1; and all Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with no body have 4 body."

Text of Helms of Iron is not worded:
"All Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with body have their body modified by +1; with no body have 4 body."

If it would be worded in second way, then I would agree that check for having/not having body is main effect of action. And that thing which activates the action is just Orc, Troll, Man attack (with, or without body).

But in actual text the phrase "all Orc, Troll, and Man attacks" happens two times.
Reason?
(In my opinion) because "All Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with body" and "all Orc, Troll, and Man attacks with no body" are two different conditions that cause different actions each.

About Drums, I don't get your point. For me there are two different effects in the first sentence (increasing hazard limit AND increasing prowess, A and B, A & B, A + B, as you like, two effects), but I fail to imagine a situation in which this specific case would raise some conflict in the game...

Yes. (Just) two different effect. With "and" in between.
That was my point.
I think that "and" means just conjunction of some statements, nothing else.
But it seems like interpretations of this simple and universal word are wery narrow nowadays.

[Mordakai]

I cannot agree that "It happens X and Y" must mean any order. If X and Y are not actions that happen at resolution it does not mean.

My fault, the order of the effects are not imposed by the AND, but by the rule of "he effects are resolved as they are written in the card". I see the chain of effects this way:

An orc/troll/man attack is created by some card/effect or whatever
You check for effects in play that can affect the attack. Let's say you have minions stir and 3 helms of iron.
AFAIK, the player with the turn chooses the order of the effects to aply to attacks (I can be wrong, but anyway, the result will be the same, I think the only case in which this is important is the Plague of Wights/Moon is Dead stacking), so the player chooses to apply Minions Stir first and then the 3 Helms of Iron.
You increase +1/+1 for Minions Stir
You apply first Helms. As you are reading the card, you apply the first effect (+1 body). Is there any body to apply it? No, then effect applied (no bonuses, sorry )and let's move to the second one. Is there any body in the attack? No? Then here you have, body 4 for you.
After that, you continue with the second Helms. Is there any body to apply it? Yes, then effect applied (+1 to body, you lucky b*stard) and let's move to the second one. Is there any body in the attack? Yes? Then don't try to get more from me, go to hell.
And finally, Helms 3 that are resolved the same way as Helms 2. Final result: Body +3 for the attacks that originally had body, body 6 for the ones without body.

My reason for not giving the +1 body in the first Helms, even with your interpretation of AND, is that you already readed the sentence once and applied it, so you can't re-read it again just because now you can get more benefir from it.

I see your point, and maybe I'm struggling in this with not very thick ice under my feet, but my common sense (as you now, the less common of all senses) shouts me that the spirit of the card is giving body 4 to those little orcs, not 5...

Whatever result comes from this thread, it's great having this conversation.

[Konrad Klar]

My reason for not giving the +1 body in the first Helms, even with your interpretation of AND, is that you already readed the sentence once and applied it, so you can't re-read it again just because now you can get more benefir from it.

I'm not re-reading card just because I can get more benefit from it. After all, at given time, my opponent, not me, may be hazard player.
Once activated, actions caused by passive condtions start working regardless of player's will. Even if all players will cry due their results.