Curiosity: With Dreams of Lore and untapped

[Konrad Klar]

...or with Rescue Prisoners, Seize Prisoners, Reforging... and untapped.
But no with Endless Whispers and untapped.

Nothing may untap a character who is the subject of an effect that states the character
may not untap.

Dark Enchantment. Playable on a non-Wizard character wounded by an Undead attack this turn; does not count against the hazard limit. Target character can never become untapped while bearing this card. Any effect that would move him to an untapped state makes him tapped instead. Cannot be duplicated on a given character. During the organization phase, a sage in the target character's company may tap to attempt to remove this card. Make a roll (or draw a #): if the result is greater than 7, discard this card.

Underline mine.

At first glance underlined phrase seems to be redundant in conjunction with CRF entry. But it is not.
Not only an action that untaps may make a character untapped.

The bearer can tap and discard this item to heal a character in his company, changing the character's status from wounded to well and untapped. Alternatively, the bearer can tap and discard this item to untap a character that is not wounded.

Underline mine.

Changing the character's status from wounded to well and untapped is one action. It is not "heal" then "untap".
So "Any effect that would move him to an untapped state makes him tapped instead" is not meaningless and thanks to Healing Herbs a wounded characters with Dreams of Lore etc. have a chance of become untapped before Dreams of Lore (etc.) will be stored.

[Bandobras Took]

Looks valid to me. Combine with Escape for fairly risk-free untapping.

[Muzgash]

As much as I appreciate any ruling that makes reforging more playable, this does seem a little shady. It's pretty clear that the phrase "changing the character's status from wounded to well and untapped" was an unfortunately worded attempt to include both effects in one sentence rather than a deliberate departure from standard untapping mechanics.

[Konrad Klar]

As much as I appreciate any ruling that makes reforging more playable, this does seem a little shady. It's pretty clear that the phrase "changing the character's status from wounded to well and untapped" was an unfortunately worded attempt to include both effects in one sentence rather than a deliberate departure from standard untapping mechanics.

If it is pretty clear for you, can you explain why "Any effect that would move him to an untapped state makes him tapped instead" is included in text of Endless Whispers?

[Muzgash]

As much as I appreciate any ruling that makes reforging more playable, this does seem a little shady. It's pretty clear that the phrase "changing the character's status from wounded to well and untapped" was an unfortunately worded attempt to include both effects in one sentence rather than a deliberate departure from standard untapping mechanics.

If it is pretty clear for you, can you explain why "Any effect that would move him to an untapped state makes him tapped instead" is included in text of Endless Whispers?

I think it's much more likely that the idiosyncratic writing style of the individual developer is responsible for that particular phrasing rather than some combo with healing herb that no one has picked up on until 2013. Of course, we all know that MECCG developers always wrote card texts with unparalleled precision and clarity, fully aware of the nuance and consequence of each word, so I could be wrong.

I'm not trying to hate on your legitimate attempts to find novel uses for under utilized cards, just felt that this one was a little rules lawyery (this coming from someone that is often viewed as a rules lawyer).

[Konrad Klar]

Sometimes a characters are getting wounded (by strike), sometimes they become wounded (in result of strike, or for other reason).
First does not activate the action from Something Has Slipped.
And this fact (or interpretation) has been discovered before 2013, if it matters.
Achieving the state wounded is not synonymous with action that may cause it.
Why becoming untapped and untap would be treated as synonymous?

Playable on a company. If a character in the company becomes wounded, the prowess of each character in the company is modified by -2 for the rest of the turn. Discard this card during its organization phase if the company is at a Darkhaven [V]. Cannot be duplicated on a given company.

[Mordakai]

changing the character's status from wounded to well and untapped

and

Any effect that would move him to an untapped state makes him tapped instead

Ok, I'm not English native, but I fail to see the difference between changing the character's status to untapped and moving him to an untapped state.

Achieving the state wounded is not synonymous with action that may cause it.
Why becoming untapped and untap would be treated as synonymous?

I can accept (and gladly I will, if that are the rules) that getting wounded and achieving the state of wounded, or becomming untapped and untapping are not the same thing in respect to the rules, but hey, I don't want to rain on your parade but they are the same thing. Maybe one thing is the action and the other is the effect, or call you as you want, but with this kind of gramatical turns and doublings the only thing we can achieve is to write another paragraph in the CoE Digest for everybody to study.

Maybe I'm too arrogant with this statement, but I'm completely sure that the intention of the writer with cards like Dreams of Lore, Rescue Priosioners, Reforging, etc, is that the character is unable by any mean of staying untapped until storing it. It does not makes sense that with Dreams of Lore you cannot untap, but if an orc just wounds you and your pal drugs you a little, then suddenly you are able to be untapped.

As Muzgash said, no spoiling of your work is intended, but I think this kind of things make the game even more difficult to play, for newcomers (not a lot, I know) and specially for people like me that return to the game after a decade, specially non-English speakers.

As I said before, I don't want to argue, if that is the real/official/whatever explanation, then ok, I'll play that way and no problem, but for me it's not in accordance with the narative game style MECCG has (or maybe had in late 90's?).

Best regards

[Konrad Klar]

changing the character's status from wounded to well and untapped

and

Any effect that would move him to an untapped state makes him tapped instead

Ok, I'm not English native, but I fail to see the difference between changing the character's status to untapped and moving him to an untapped state.

I think that:
changing the character's status from wounded to well and untapped

is one of effects described below:
Any effect that would move him to an untapped state makes him tapped instead

other is just "untap".

So Healing Herbs effect will not make character with Endless Whispers well and untapped, but well and tapped.
By text specific to Endless Whispers.

I think that I stated it in first post of the thread. Maybe not clearly enough.

As Muzgash said, no spoiling of your work is intended, but I think this kind of things make the game even more difficult to play, for newcomers (not a lot, I know) and specially for people like me that return to the game after a decade, specially non-English speakers.

I do not take your responses as spoiling.
Of course this thread (at least its first post) is not addressed to newcomers. It assumess that reader has some knowledge of rules.
As first word of title - Curiosity - suggest, this is about detailed thing, that would be unnoticed if some texts would not be read carefuly.
Maybe it will not encourage anyone to MECCG but: careless reading is not cure for anything.

[Mordakai]

Endless Whispers clearly states both things:

Dark Enchantment. Playable on a non-Wizard character wounded by an Undead attack this turn; does not count against the hazard limit. Target character can never become untapped while bearing this card. Any effect that would move him to an untapped state makes him tapped instead. Cannot be duplicated on a given character. During the organization phase, a sage in the target character's company may tap to attempt to remove this card. Make a roll (or draw a #): if the result is greater than 7, discard this card.

but other cards use a different wording that allows the "trick" of getting untapped without "untapping", because Healing Herbs does not "heal" and then "untap", but "changes the status to well and untapped", that is not the same thing. I think that's your point, am I right? I agree the wording is not the same, but the effect generated certainly is, so, for me, it is the same. I don't encourage careless reading, but a bit of coherency is sometimes needed. Look for example a card also interesting in this issue, Andúril, The Flame of the West:

blablabla... Tap the sage and the site. The sage makes a corruption check modified by -3. Keep sage tapped until Andúril is stored in a Haven [ ]. Blablabla...

So by the wording of this card, the bearer would not be wounded by any means, because the card clearly states that you have to keep the sage tapped, and wounding it would make it not tapped (by rules, a character can only be in one of these states, well and untapped, well and tapped or wounded, if I remember correctly). But let's go even beyond: until Andúril is stored in a Haven. Which card is Andúril? The card should state this card or Andúril, The Flame of the West if it refers to itself, but there is no card called Andúril, isn't it? so we have to interpret that the author of the text wanted you to keep the character carrying it tapped (or wounded, should it happen) until you store it, no matter how good you are with grammar.

That is my point, I understand that wording is important, but also is an easy approach to the text of the cards. I always think of this kind of issues this way: if there was a reedition of the game with all card texts streamlined and well worded, do you think that in cards like Dreams of Lore/Reforging/whatever another line should be added saying something like "the caracter cannot untap, but you can put it untapped using healing herbs if it is wounded"? I absolutely don't.

Just my 2 cents.

Best regards

[Konrad Klar]

but other cards use a different wording that allows the "trick" of getting untapped without "untapping", because Healing Herbs does not "heal" and then "untap", but "changes the status to well and untapped", that is not the same thing. I think that's your point, am I right?

Right.

blablabla... Tap the sage and the site. The sage makes a corruption check modified by -3. Keep sage tapped until Andúril is stored in a Haven [ ]. Blablabla...

"Keep tapped" is not the same as "cannot be untapped". Healing Herbs cannot change status that cannot be changed.
Andúril, The Flame of the West is different name than Andúril, or Anduril.

I'm acknowledging your points.
And that are reasons for which such things are worth to put under discussion.

There are always two possibilities in such cases.
Either:

- someone discovers unexpected consequences of some text, that is worded properly and matches author's intentions. Consequences of the text do not necesserily matches author's intentions. For example ICE would not plan of using the Parsimony of Seclusion, or From the Pits of Angband to fetching a dragon factions.
But a dragon factions are dragon manifestations and this satisfies texts of Parsimony of Seclusion, and From the Pits of Angband.
If this approach is unacceptable, then we have guarantee that nothing unexpected will appear in any gameplay.

- someone tries to exploit a language glithes by threating them as rules, or valid card texts. "Andúril, The Flame of the West" vs "Andúril" is example. Restricting a definition of playing a cards to "bringing a card from your hand into play" , but not from other sources is other example; someone then states that Undead attacking in result of Exhalation of Decay is not played, because Undead comes into play not from hand and may overcome Stealth. The same someone does not reflect much how to have a site card at hand to be able to play it.


I asked Muzgash about meaning of:
Any effect that would move him to an untapped state makes him tapped instead
because for me it is hard to imagine a someone articulating a whole new verb, just to repeat tha same what was written in previous verb.
In short: I think that text was intentional and its meaning exactly matches author's intentions. (Please note that without it Healing Herbs would be completely ineffectual against character with Endless Whispers; unless you believe that Healing Herbs does "heal" than "untap").

[...]if there was a reedition of the game with all card texts streamlined and well worded, do you think that in cards like Dreams of Lore/Reforging/whatever another line should be added saying something like "the caracter cannot untap, but you can put it untapped using healing herbs if it is wounded"? [...]

No. There is nothing wrong in generic texts, that do not refer to effects of particular card. They do not need to be updated to include effects of new particular cards that come in new editions (e.g. Foul-smelling Paste).

Cheers

[Konrad Klar]

And if character with Dreams of Lore could not become untapped, not only could not untap, then Healing Herbs, or Foul-smelling Paste would not even heal him (again: unless someone believes that Healing Herbs, or Foul-smelling Paste do "heal" then "untap"; in such case only second action would be blocked).

[Mordakai]

I agree with your points, and that's why I wrote before that if it is correct, official, or call it as you like, then that is the law and I'm ok with it. It's just I feel some mechanics of the game are used against the spirit of it just because of the wording, and this is one of it. My interpretation of the whole issue is that the Healing Herbs could heal any character with cards like that (endless whispers, Andúril, Dreams or any other) but the character would stay tapped. Why? because it's the logical thing (for me, of course). Probably you are right, but the result is that I'll have to remember another "rules exception" in my head, and I'd like to hold the less of them.

Regards

[Konrad Klar]

For me an exception is thing that works, or does not work despite the fact that rules imply otherwise.
Because, for example, otherwise it would appear as strange, against spirit of something, or because people are not used to some things.
If only things I need to know are text of card and general rules, there is no exception to remember (for me).

Regards

[Mordakai]

Hence the quotation marks in my post, I called it "Rules exception" because for me, getting untapped while carrying a Dreams of Lore is strange, against the spirit of the card and I'm not used to seeing it Not being a native English speaker has a lot to do with it, probably.
I prepared a list to tell you some other issues that shock me a lot about the game, but finally I erased it from the post, just to keep the issue focused.


Regards