Aragorn / Strider uniqueness

[Mordakai]

Well, we all know that if Strider is slain or corrupted to the out of play pile nobody can play Aragorn II.

But...

I play Strider in the draft and later in the game I change him for Aragorn II (and put Strider in the out of play pile). Now my evil opponet sends Aragorn II to my hand with a Call of Home. Can I play him again? Because a Manifestation of him is in the out of play pile...

We are discussing in the spanish group, and the common criteria is that you cannot play it again. Sounds illogical, but RAW say that. Any ideas?

[Bandobras Took]

Unique. Manifestation of Aragorn II. You may bring Aragorn II into play with Strider's company, removing Strider from the game and automatically transferring all cards on Strider to Aragorn II. +3 direct influence against the Rangers of the North faction. Tap Strider to search your discard pile for any one item, ally, or faction playable at his current site -- the site must be in Arthedain, Cardolan, Rhudaur, or The Shire.

Strider is not in the out of play pile. He is removed from the game (not "removed from play" as indicated in the MELE rules). Therefore, you don't have to worry.

And thanks to the question, I think I finally understand the difference.

[Mordakai]

So if you play Strider and change it to Aragorn, it's OK if I call it home and play my own Strider?

[Bandobras Took]

So far as I can tell.

[Mordakai]

Another nonsense to the list... BTW, any examples of card or situation where a card is removed from play and not from the game?

[Konrad Klar]

There are many and I would call some of them, but not removing the Strider from game, nonsense.

If you are a Balrog player, your opponent may not play any of the following cards:
The Balrog (Ally), The Black Council, Durin’s Bane, Balrog of Moria, Reluctant
Final Parting.
However, if at any time your opponent has one of these cards in his hand, he may
remove it from play and bring one card from his sideboard into his play deck.

If a card removed from play would remain in play for purpose of uniqueness, then removing The Balrog (Ally), or Durin’s Bane, would prevent a Balrog player from playing a Balrog card.

Only your opponent can receive marshalling points from defeating a manifestation of
a Dragon that you played. If you defeat a Dragon manifestation that you played, it is
removed from the game and no one receives its marshalling points. If at any time an
attack from a manifestation of a unique Dragon is defeated or if the manifestation is
otherwise removed from the game:
• All existing manifestations in play of the same Dragon are removed from the
game.
• No further manifestations of the same Dragon may be played.
• The Dragon’s lair no longer has an automatic-attack.

Here conversely, defeating of manifestation of Dragon is treated as one of ways of removing it from game, not from play.
And if a card that is manifestation of unique Dragon will be removed from game according to Desire All for Thy Belly, then all manifestations of the Dragon should be removed from game too.

To play this card, you must discard a Spawn card from your hand. Reveal to yourself a number of cards from the top of opponent's play deck equal to the number of Spawn cards in play. Eliminated Spawn do not count. Choose one card and show it to your opponent. He must choose to either: remove the card from the game or decrease the number of cards he may hold in his hand by one for the rest of the game. Shuffle and replace all remaining cards back on top of his play deck. Remove this card from the game.

However there is sign, that ICE treated the difference between "removing form play" and "removing from game" as existent.

Removes cards from the game, not just from play.

All underlines mine.

[Mordakai]

[Bandobras Took]

There are many and I would call some of them, but not removing the Strider from game, nonsense.

If you are a Balrog player, your opponent may not play any of the following cards:
The Balrog (Ally), The Black Council, Durin’s Bane, Balrog of Moria, Reluctant
Final Parting.
However, if at any time your opponent has one of these cards in his hand, he may
remove it from play and bring one card from his sideboard into his play deck.

If a card removed from play would remain in play for purpose of uniqueness, then removing The Balrog (Ally), or Durin’s Bane, would prevent a Balrog player from playing a Balrog card.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but:

That rule is poorly worded. You can't remove a card from play that was never in play, and a card in your hand is definitely not in play.

Only your opponent can receive marshalling points from defeating a manifestation of
a Dragon that you played. If you defeat a Dragon manifestation that you played, it is
removed from the game and no one receives its marshalling points. If at any time an
attack from a manifestation of a unique Dragon is defeated or if the manifestation is
otherwise removed from the game:
• All existing manifestations in play of the same Dragon are removed from the
game.
• No further manifestations of the same Dragon may be played.
• The Dragon’s lair no longer has an automatic-attack.

Here conversely, defeating of manifestation of Dragon is treated as one of ways of removing it from game, not from play.

The italicized rule would be redundant if a card removed from the game were still in play for purposes of uniqueness. Therefore, a unique dragon removed from the game with Desire All would mean, by rule, that no further manifestation of the same dragon may be played. This does not mean that every unique card removed by Desire can never be replayed. Defeating a Dragon does not actually remove it from the game (in the rules sense):

Out-of-play Pile - Your cards that are removed from play after being used and that do not award marshalling points are placed in your out-of-play pile.

If you defeat a creature that does not have an * next to its marshalling points, place the card in your out-of-play pile.

Which means if you defeat a Dragon or if you otherwise remove it from the game (I'll confess that "otherwise" makes the problem stickier), all of those rules apply.

However there is sign, that ICE treated the difference between "removing form play" and "removing from game" as existent.

Removes cards from the game, not just from play.

All underlines mine.

Hehe.

Here's one more:

Clarification: In general, cards in your out-of-play pile and your marshalling point pile are considered to be actively in play for the purposes of being unique (if the card states it is unique).

I can find nowhere that suggests that a card removed from the game is placed in your out-of-play pile. Most references are to things that have been eliminated. The MELE rules make reference to "eliminated from the game," which is not the same thing as removed from the game.

[Konrad Klar]

The italicized rule would be redundant if a card removed from the game were still in play for purposes of uniqueness.

Och no. It would be possible that Smaug and Smaug Ahunt were removed from play, or from game, but without:
• No further manifestations of the same Dragon may be played.
Smaug Ahunt and Smaug Roused still could be played.

I agree with rest.

[Konrad Klar]

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but:

That rule is poorly worded. You can't remove a card from play that was never in play, and a card in your hand is definitely not in play.

He, he..
One more thing.

Opponent reveals four cards at random from his discard pile. You may choose a non-unique one and remove it from play. Opponent discards the other three. Quickly now he drew off the cloth, wrapped the stone in it and kneeling down, laid it back in the wizard's hand.-LotRIII

[Konrad Klar]

ICE was like someone repairing a clock using a hammer.
They had something better in mind that at tongue.

If this game is able to be played it is because players use auto-correction. They are adjusting what they read to closest known sense.
But some subtle (and not subtle) things become victims of both hammer and adjusting.
And it is often revealed when someone tries to understand, how some thing are exactly working.

Usually an answer requires a reconstruction. And almost never the reconstruction is official - is an errata. If a rules would correct and correctly worded, the answer would be implied from them, and there would not be anything requiring the reconstruction.

[dirhaval]

I like to add something.

I see three possibilities:

1. remove from play
2. remove card from the game
3, remove from the game

1. Remove from play
The card in question is taken from the game either to sideboard, discard pile, "off-to-the-side", or whatever
e.g. Out of the Black Sky "if the Nazgul is defeated, place this card in opponent's MP pile and remove the Nazgul from play.


2. Remove the card from the game
The physical card in question is removed, not all copies in use by the players in play or removed from a deck.
If unique, then owner of the hazard can still play that removed card.
Else, at most five copies of that card can by played for the remainder of the game.
e.g. Desire All for Thy Belly and Aware of Their Ways
e.g. Fury of the Iron Crown, played on a creature, so just the card not all cards of the same name.
e.g. Echoes of Song

3. Remove from the game
e.g. News of Doom. "Remove News of Doom from the game."
No other player can play this card after its first playing.

Balrog of Moria has "this permanent-event is removed from play(i.e. the Balrog is defeated).
To me this means no one else can play a copy even though this balrog is not named
and not all were accounted for after the War of Wrath. Okay, try killing this event,
then next turn when a troll company from Dol Guldur visits your tapped Fellowship
you play your copy of Balrog of Moria, saying, "There could be more than one. This new
maia found a vacate city since the departure of the last lord. <shrug>"


By the way, many corruption hazards note removing the hazard and not discarding.
Now, I am thinking what happens say if you have News of Doom in hand, but your opponent plays it first?
Can you show opponent to get it out of your hand? I say no. It is just a dead card taking up hand space.

[Konrad Klar]

Not that I agree with you, but I have some questions.

1. Remove from play
The card in question is taken from the game either to sideboard, discard pile, "off-to-the-side", or whatever

Why you think that a card placed "off to the side" is removed from play? It cannot be affected by anything except a things that specifically affect a card "off to the side". But nowhere is written that it is so working in opposite direction.

Else, at most five copies of that card can by played for the remainder of the game.

Almost 3 x number of players -1, I would say (not taking into account a card[s like] Black Horse).

If I understand, a factor that decides whether a card belongs to category 2, or to category 3, is how it is referred?
If by pronoun - "the card", "this card" - then it belongs to category 2, if by name of card, then it belongs to category 3.
Right?

What is a reason of allocating category 3?
Is it something tangible, or intuition?

[Konrad Klar]

I think that I know answer for:

What is a reason of allocating category 3?
Is it something tangible, or intuition?

Something tangible. To get rid Strider once and for good. Therefore the News of Doom (and not Strider) has been used as example.

[Bandobras Took]

More confusion:

Out-of-play Pile - Your cards that are removed from play after being used and that do not award marshalling points are placed in your out-of-play pile.

Clarification: If a character is eliminated due to combat or due to failing a corruption check by 2 or more, his card is placed in the out-of-play pile (. . .) When a card is removed from play in all other cases, the card is discarded unless the card specifically states otherwise.

So removed from play must mean discarding unless it means being put in the out of play pile?