A Brand New (Hopefully) Questions on Sac of Form

[Bandobras Took]

It has been ruled that discarding the Wizard is an active condition.

Annotation 6: If an action requires an entity to be discarded as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be discarded when the action is declared; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration; i.e., it is not a separate action.

Spell. Wizard only. All of the strikes from one attack against your Wizard's company fail; +3 to any body checks made to determine if the attack is defeated. Discard the Wizard (i.e. he becomes unrevealed) and any non-item cards he controls. Place any items he controls under this card and keep these off to the side (these items are considered to still be in play). If the Wizard is put back into play, return his items to him and place Sacrifice of Form with him. Wizard receives +1 to his prowess, body and direct influence. May not be duplicated on a given Wizard.

If I have to discard the wizard immediately upon declaring sacrifice of form:

1) How can the strikes from an attack against the wizard's company fail if he is no longer with the company when the card resolves? If I've discarded my wizard, then the attack is no longer against the wizard's company.

2) If the wizard and all non-item cards he controls are discarded upon declaration, then the wizard no longer controls the items upon resolution. Thus, are no items to be put to the side with the card?

3) Can I play Sac of Form on a wizard that already has one on him, since it will only be "on him" once he is put back into play and the other one will have been discarded with the wizard?

[zarathustra]

1) This is just another case of the quirkiness of actions as opposed to states. Obviously if you discard the arkenstone to force the discard of your opponent's dwarf, the same situationa arises ("But it's not true that the bearer of the arkenstone is at the same site as the dwarf! No one bears the Arkenstone!").

2) The items go off to the side at declaration too.

3) No, since you would duplicate the playing of Sac of Form on the wizard.

[Konrad Klar]

1) This is just another case of the quirkiness of actions as opposed to states. Obviously if you discard the arkenstone to force the discard of your opponent's dwarf, the same situationa arises ("But it's not true that the bearer of the arkenstone is at the same site as the dwarf! No one bears the Arkenstone!").

It would be the same quirkiness if Arkenstone text would be:
"Discard Arkenstone. Discard the Dwarf character (and all cards he controls) at the same site as bearer of this item."

However actual text is:
"If the bearer of this item is at the same site as a Dwarf character, you may discard this item to force the discard of the Dwarf (and all cards he controls)."

Underline (as usual) mine.

Main effect [i.e. "discard of the Dwarf (and all cards he controls)."] does not check for presence of Arkenstone's bearer.

P.S.

Card Erratum (minion version): Change "and all cards he controls" to "and all nonfollower
cards he controls.' [Effective 7/13/96]

[Bandobras Took]

1) This is just another case of the quirkiness of actions as opposed to states. Obviously if you discard the arkenstone to force the discard of your opponent's dwarf, the same situationa arises ("But it's not true that the bearer of the arkenstone is at the same site as the dwarf! No one bears the Arkenstone!").

I'm not sure:

If the bearer of this item is at the same site as a Dwarf character, you may discard this item to force the discard of the Dwarf

It seems to me that once the condition has been checked (Bearer of this item is at the same site as a Dwarf character), a new effect may be initiated (discard the card to discard the dwarf). Of course, I'm no expert on these things, but the only way I'll learn is by asking weird questions.

Once you are capable of initiating the Arkenstone's effect, it won't be checking any more -- that's already true. I believe you've got a new chain of effects starting with "I discard this card to force the discard of the dwarf."

I can see what you're saying, though (that the phrase "the Dwarf" refers back to the "if" clause), but also agree with Konrad that the wording is different. Sacrifice of Form does not say discard the Wizard to cause all strikes of an attack against the Wizard's company to fail.

On a related note, are the corruption checks on spell cards the active condition for playing them? Also:

Magic. Spirit-magic. Playable on a hazard permanent-event on a character in a spirit-magic-using character's company. Discard target hazard.

Is discarding the hazard the active condition for playing Poison of his Voice? The wording seems similar.

2) The items go off to the side at declaration too.

Okay, that's part of the active condition. That makes more sense.

3) No, since you would duplicate the playing of Sac of Form on the wizard.

But isn't the old one automatically discarded by playing the new one? If you have to discard the wizard and all cards he controls in order to even play Sac of Form, won't the old one be discarded before you put the new one on the table, thus making it so you aren't duplicating it?

Sorry to be annoying, i'm just going through one of my phases where I once again try to understand timing and passive and active conditions before giving up on the whole bowl of spaghetti.

[jaded]

I ask (for third time) the question:
If putting items and non-item cards are active conditions- doesn't it mean the Wizard should control them at declaration?

[zarathustra]

Of course he should. You don't set aside other characters' items....

I fear that I haven't understood your question though Do you mean to ask something more specific?

<getting used to being fooled into contradicting himself by Highwayman, Jaded, and Konrad >

[Konrad Klar]

In other words:
Sacrifice of Form may be played with Wizard not bearing items?

[zarathustra]

I guess I don't see how the setting aside of items is a problem here. Active condition for Sac is: Discard your wizard and set aside all his items. All might = 0. Am I still missing the point?

[Konrad Klar]

No. I think that you are consistent at this point ("all" is not target and may be zero). Anyway, this is Jaded's question and he may have different opinion (other objection).

[jaded]

Except that there is "any " not "all" , I get your point. Anyhow word "any" can mean anything.

[Manuel]

Guys, you're going too far. Poor Mark

[Bandobras Took]

To repeat my other questions (they may have gotten lost):

Are active conditions done before a card may be played, are they simultaneous with the card's declaration, or are they done after the card is resolved?

In the case of Sacrifice of Form, at what point is the card considered to be "on the wizard" for the purposes of duplication? At no point is there the phrase "playable on a wizard." The only point at which is is "on a wizard" is when the wizard comes back into play after being discarded.

Are the corruption checks on other Spells active conditions?

Is discarding the hazard permanent event an active condition of Poison of His Voice?

[Konrad Klar]

However, if placing of any items off to the side would be true active condition, then it would be very special case.
Only two action are described by Active Conditions rules: discarding an tapping. Targets and all other active conditions must be in play when action is resolved, otherwise action cannot be resolved.
Obviously items beared by Wizard cannot be placed off to the side both on declaration and at resolution.

[zarathustra]

Are active conditions done before a card may be played, are they simultaneous with the card's declaration, or are they done after the card is resolved?

It depends. If they are lasting states of the game, then they must be in play prior to the declaration of the card. If they are actions, then they are simultaneous with the play of the card. (see annotations 5-8)

In the case of Sacrifice of Form, at what point is the card considered to be "on the wizard" for the purposes of duplication? At no point is there the phrase "playable on a wizard." The only point at which is is "on a wizard" is when the wizard comes back into play after being discarded.

Sac of Form targets your wizard when you play it. Hence, it is "on" him when you declare it (also when you bring him back into play). If you try to declare a 2nd Sac on a wizard that already has one, you will have two Sacs targetting him: the one already on him, and the one you are trying to play. This is not allowable, as per the text of Sac.

Are the corruption checks on other Spells active conditions?

No.

Is discarding the hazard permanent event an active condition of Poison of His Voice?

No, of course not.

[Bandobras Took]

Cool, thanks.