Do Thorough Search and Bounty of the Hoard target a site?

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Zakath
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Do Thorough Search and Bounty of the Hoard target a site?

Post by Zakath » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:11 pm

MEWH rules wrote:A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card. A minion resource card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.
MEWH rules wrote:In order to play a non-Fallen-wizard resource that would normally tap a site, either the site and the resource to be played must both be hero cards or they must both be minion cards. For these purposes, a Fallen-wizard site card (or any Wizardhaven) is both a hero and minion site. This applies to all factions, allies, and items; as well as other cards played during the site phase that tap the site.
I was canvassing old decks looking for inspiration recently and one of the ones I took another look at was the 'Bounty of Framsburg' concept. Now I'm wondering whether one of the mechanics in it works. As Mark originally built it, it included 2 copies each of Bounty of the Hoard and Hoard Well-searched.

Per the above rules, the conversion of the site into a Wizardhaven wouldn't affect the playability of those short-events at all, since they aren't resources which tap the site. Thus, if they target the site, they would only be playable if they matched the site's alignment.

Now my own read on it is that they *don't* target the site. The entity playing out an action enabled by those cards is the character who plays an item. Nothing about the site itself is altered in any way by the play of such an event. The site provides conditions for the playability of those cards and that's all.

This came up in the following topic on the old boards: Minion Rings at Hero Bag-End.

The catch is that I finally found the elusive ruling on this interaction from back when Van was the ICE netrep! At least assuming this is legitimate.
Rules digest 538 wrote: 3) Can *Thorough Search* (hero resource) be successfully played by a party at a minon Bag End? I.e. does Thorough Search TARGET the site?

No. Thorough Search targets the site.

4) Can Thorough Search be successfully employed at Bag End/Chambers?

Yes, if the site is hero, no if the site is minion. The special wizardhaven rule only effects the play of resources that will potentially tap the site.

5) Can *Catch an Elusive Scent* be successfully employed at Bag End/Chambers?

No, if the site is hero, yes if the site is minion.
Now...is this even binding? If so, should it be overruled (and who has the authority to do that nowadays...)?
Last edited by Zakath on Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Theo
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Re: Do Through Search and Bounty of the Hoard target a site?

Post by Theo » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:09 am

Awesome, I hadn't seen these old mailings before.

But here's some more reasoning:
CRF #521 wrote:According the the White Hand rule Supplement, "In order to play a non-Fallen-Wizard resource that would _normally_ tap the site, either the site and resource must be hero card or they must both be minion cards." The key word is normally. Warg-King will normally tap the site, so you can't play it even though it can be played at a tapped site. The same would be true with cards like Thorough Search since the item would normally tap the site.
This is consistent with the theory that the "may play" phrase doesn't by default make its own play allowance, but this has not been consistently upheld (see A Chance Meeting from CoE 2018 vote, for such a conflicting example).

As for overrule authority, beyond doing whatever you like in your local play group, this forum is hosted by the only internationally recognized governing body that I'm aware of. Check out the submission forum.
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Zakath
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Re: Do Through Search and Bounty of the Hoard target a site?

Post by Zakath » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:02 am

To me, that reasoning would apply to the item you're playing with Thorough Search, not to the play of Thorough Search itself. I.e. if you're playing Thorough Search at a minion site, you must play a minion item.

In fact, it feels like that's the only way it can be interpreted - resource short-events don't normally tap sites, and Thorough Search specifically never taps a site.

To me, it feels like Van just stated that it targeted the site because the site is mentioned in the text of the card, even though it doesn't conform to any of the targeting rules.

I do think it seems clear that Thorough Search can't actually be used to play a minion item, since it targets the item. But I still don't see how it targets the site.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Do Thorough Search and Bounty of the Hoard target a site?

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:19 am

Do Thorough Search and Bounty of the Hoard target a site?

No.
They do not target an item too (player does not specify an item to be played at declaration of the cards, so an item cannot be target of them).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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