roadblock cards

[Hombarus]

So what exactly prompts disabling the play of creatures?

[Konrad Klar]

Declaration of action "Return a company to the site of origin" at beginning of M/H phase of company.
Corruption cards, creatures an other actions that potentially create immediate attack cannot be declared in response.

If for any reason the company will not be returned to its site of origin, there will be chance for playing a such cards.

[Hombarus]

Where do you get "at the beginning of the M/H phase" part from?

And it clearly says "return" not "cannot leave site of origin". So what stops me from playing creatures keyed to the site, as the company need to return there?

So same question again: other than the completely malfunctioning erratum - clearly out of sync with the dynamics of the game - what backs up not playing creatures during snowstorm being active?

I mean have you never seen animals in the snow? Or what?

[Konrad Klar]

Where do you get "at the beginning of the M/H phase" part from?

From here:
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145

Part 1.
The proposed errata did not passed yet.
If the argument is not acceptable then ccs from Lure of Senses, or Lure of Nature will never be declared, because end of phase never happens in chain of effects.

Also "Return a company to the site of origin" from Snowstorm will newer be declared if no other action would be declared during M/H phase.
I.e. a company would not be returned to its site of origin even if Snowstorm is in play and there is in company's site path. Because there would not be a chain of effects in which the condition "moving company with a in its site path" would be produced.

And it clearly says "return" not "cannot leave site of origin".

See text of Snowstorm.

So what stops me from playing creatures keyed to the site, as the company need to return there?

You are repeating the same question.
My answer is the same as before.

So same question again: other than the completely malfunctioning erratum - clearly out of sync with the dynamics of the game - what backs up not playing creatures during snowstorm being active?

Not quite the same question.

I will try to answer in different way.
Suppose that Snowstorm is not in play. Doors of Night is in play.
Company is moving through some .

Player controlling the company plays Smoke Rings; his opponent plays Snowstorm in response; no other actions are declared.
Chain of effects resolves.
Snowstorm resolves (company is not returned at this point; I will try to explain why later)
Smoke Rings resolves (player shuffles a card from sideboard or from discard pile to deck).

Now I hope that you have access to CRF and you will read Passive Conditions chapter.

If in chain of effects a passive condition is produced (e.g. both Snowstorm is in play AND moves through ) then the action activated by the passive condition (here: "Return a company to the site of origin") does not happen immediately.
The action is declared as first action in next chain of effects.

Players may declare some other action in response to "Return a company to the site of origin", but not actions that may not be declared in response at all (no creatures, no Corruption cards).

I mean have you never seen animals in the snow? Or what?

Now imagine that Snowstorm is in play and that company is moving through before any action was declared by any player.
I.e. at beginning of M/H phase.

[Theo]

What I need is to pinpoint the rule in the original rules that in any shape or form backs this erratum for ending the M/H phase immediately. I mean where did you get that??

Maybe this is the kind of thing you have in mind? Under preamble for chapter 6, Movement:

Clarification: some cards can interrupt this process by forcing a company to return to its site of origin.

In general, "cards" is meant to include any "effects". The location of the clarification suggests that "this process" is Movement. That is, Movement is interrupted by an effect that forces a company to return to its site of origin. A cessation of Movement means you are done with the Movement/Hazard phase. Immediately.

[Hombarus]

This is all clear.

What is still not clear is what part denies me to play creatures. Ok, company will never reach the destination site. You can't play creatures keyed to the site of destination. That would make perfect sense.

However, the card clearly states that the company must return to the site of origin. I think return is the key word here, if we go by the rules of the English language. They have left the site, however due to circumstances, they never reach their destination thus they return to the site of origin.

As far as the rules of both MECCG and English language go - together in this case - there is literally no objection whatsoever to play creatures for example keyed to the region of the site of origin. That is my point, that is my argument in this particular case. And the proposed or accepted erratum makes very little sense, saying that no creatures or corruption can be played and the M/H phase ends immediately. How???? Makes no sense whatsoever.
If the company would have stayed and never left, you would have at least H/L of 2, unless cards would modify that. Now that Snowstorm is active is in play from the previous M/H phase of a different company, suddenly the M/H phase evaporates.

Now that is a completely different argument that can I play creatures keyed to the site of origin, as they return there. I mean even basic logic would suggest, that an assassin waiting for the company at lets say Bree, would cancel the attack, as the poor adventurers had to come back due to heavy snowing and the killer feels for them... right? But that is a completely separate debate.

[Hombarus]

You see Theo, that is what it does not mean. No. It means, their journey is interrupted and they have to return. Still there is no suggestion that the hazards cannot be played. The move is interrupted. Ergo they cannot reach the site of destination.

[Konrad Klar]

You may reject a whole mechanics of actions caused by passive conditions and stay with your opinion.
Sooner or later you (and your opponents) will face a problems:
What happens if Long Winter, Doors of Nights. Dragon Ahunt are in play and company is moving through , through region(s) affected by the Dragon Ahunt, and does not have a ranger?
What (and when exactly) happens a first: returning to a site of origin, facing the Dragon attack, or maybe tapping of a site of origin?

You will need to develop your own methods of solving the problems (if you do not have them already), if you are rejecting an answers that you are receiving at the forum.

[Kjeld]

Any player can interpret the rules any way he or she wants, but it doesn't mean anyone else will play with them. The purpose of this forum, rules gurus like Konrad, and the extensively-documented democratic protocol for proposing and passing rules errata and clarifications is to create a common meaning for the rules on which the majority of players agree. It sets a standard so that players can go about actually enjoying the game without excessive quibbling or head-scratching.

You're welcome to a minority opinion, of course, and there are proper channels for proposing a change to the established interpretation of the rules, which will then be voted on. But you shouldn't persist in claiming that the majority ruling should simply be overturned because you haven't taken the time to understand the process and its purpose. It simply wastes everyone's time.

[Vastor Peredhil]

thanks Kjeld

much preciated

[CDavis7M]

You guys are all missing the point. The movement/hazard phase ends and creatures cannot be played because the creatures are clearly also road blocked.

(Though, this doesn't explain corruption hazards being prevented)

[Hombarus]

Well! First thing first:

The fact that you completely derailed the debate to a separate issue shows that your ruling is constructed out of thin air. You could not pinpoint an actual rule so you moved on to a different issue to cover up your confusion. That is how I feel about your explanation. I might be wrong of course.

Having Long winter in the play and Smaug ahunt at the same time would still not disable the play of creatures. And if you RETURN(!)ed, what would stop the opponent to play creatures? Still not clear. And now it is obvious that the answer is far out of your competence. What I personally love about Kjeld's instant jump at your defense is that his point is that you are the one to call the shots and you guys do not seem to be open to constructive debate. Simply brilliant....

Now. Going back to your issue - to display the willingness on my part to participate in constructive debates on your problems:

Improvising the answer, let's say, the company moves from Lorien, to Caves of Úlund. Moving through . Each card will trigger the first instance it is possible. So Smaug ahunt will trigger in Grey Mountain narrows. by this time the company moved through . Then, reaching withered heath, the second in the journey will trigger Long winter. That would make perfect sense, however, this answer has been improvised, just now, there might be downfalls to the logic. But there, that is how you solve it in a very logical way. More importantly, in sync with the game dynamics in general. And you can still play creatures.

Following the same logic, Snowstorm is in play. Exact same instance, Leaving Lorien It triggers Snowstorm. However, I can still play creatures, keyed to 1 or Woold and Foothills. Once I cannot play any more hazards, the company RETURNS and not remains in Lorien.

Now the question, and I believe the only valid question as the rest seems so obvious if you do not think outside the box, but go straight back to the box. The box is there for a reason thinking too much outside the box makes you forget what the box is. So can I play creatures keyed to the site they return to, in this instance Lorien - let's assume, Balrog of Moria is in play and I have an Assassin in my hand?

[Konrad Klar]

Having Long winter in the play and Smaug ahunt at the same time would still not disable the play of creatures.

Yes. It does not disable a playing of creatures.
But a rules that regulate what happens if multiple actions from cards like Long Winter and Smaug Ahunt must happen, and what is timing of the actions, say that they are declared.
Other rules say that Corruption cards and Creatures (and other actions that potentially create an immediate attack) may not be declared in response.

You may reject some or of the rules, or all of them.
If you dislike a rule that says the Creatures may not be played in response, you may play Creatures in response to Smoke Rings.
If you dislike a rule that says the Corruption cards may not be played in response, you may play Lure of Senses in response to tapping a Torque of Hues (that would be very convenient moment, if not the rule).

And if you RETURN(!)ed, what would stop the opponent to play creatures?

You cannot be returned. Your company may be returned.
If company returns to its site of origin its M/H phase ends. Nothing may be played in ended M/H phase.

And now it is obvious that the answer is far out of your competence.

I hope that I at least understand the question.

So can I play creatures keyed to the site they return to, in this instance Lorien - let's assume, Balrog of Moria is in play and I have an Assassin in my hand?

Creatures cannot be keyed to a site of origin.

[Kjeld]

whatever was typed

Translation: Didn't read anything before responding.

Why bother taking part in this conversation or even this forum if you don't actually intend to listen to what anyone else has to say?

[Hombarus]

Konrad, thinking of the keyed to the site of origin, you make sense and you are right about it.

I must retract, as I see you have no answers, just rulings. It is sad.

Kjeld, keep it shut mate, you are way out of your depth here.