Reducing Region Movement

[Bergil]

Hello rules lawyers,

Suppose I have a company with as many Hobbits as non-Hobbits and these three hazards are already play at the start of my turn:

Doors of Night (Permanent‐event Environment. All resource environment cards in play are immediately discarded, and all resource environment effects are canceled. Cannot be duplicated.)

No Way Forward (Permanent‐event Environment. The number of region cards that may be played by a moving company using region movement is reduced by one (by two if Doors of Night is in play) to a minimum of two. This card is effective during each playerʹs organization phase. Discard when any play deck is exhausted. Cannot be duplicated.

Short Legs Are Slow (Permanent‐event Affects companies with at least as many Hobbits as non‐Hobbit characters. Number of regions affected companies can move is reduced by one. Affected companies cannot use starter movement if region movement is being used in game. Cannot be
duplicated. Discard when any play deck is exhausted.)

Which of these things is valid:
(A) The hazard player can choose to apply the effects of Short Legs Are Slow after No Way Forward to reduce the number of regions I can move to one (effectively keeping me in one region)?
(B) As the Resource player, I get to decide which order to apply the hazard effects, since (as No Way Forward states) the card is effective in the organization phase. So I could choose to first apply Short Legs Are Slow, keeping the region limit at No Way Forward's minimum of two.
(C) Once the minimum of two regions is reached, nothing else can reduce the limit.
(D) Something else


Thanks!

[Konrad Klar]

I think that it is regulated by Annotation 26.

Annotation 26: If at the start of a player's movement/hazard phase, there are multiple
effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied, the
player who is currently not taking his turn (i.e., the hazard player) decides the order in
which they are to be applied. Once this interpretation is established, all further actions
are applied in the order they are resolved for the rest of the turn.

There is proposal that changes the period from "for the rest of the turn" to "until the end of the next long-event phase".
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 145&t=3600

[meaglyn]

I think it would have to apply in the organization phase. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to play a new site not knowing how many regions you could move.

[CDavis7M]

Question: If Doors of Night is in play, will the combination of No Way Forward and Short Legs are Slow prevent a 50%+ Hobbit company from moving more than one region? Doors of Night/No Way Forward reduces the regions by two(to a minimum of two), and Short Legs are Slow reduces it another one(and doesn't have a minimum). What happens?
Answer: The hazard player decides the order they are resolved in. If Short Legs ere Slow is resolved second, a majority Hobbit company would only move one region.
----------
Follow-up Question: Just for my own clarification: this means that the company could not leave the region, right?
Answer 2: Correct.

The ICE Digests state that the hazard player decides. I've copied the description of Annotation 26 in the Companion for you below.

The post linked by Konrad notes that Annotation 26 doesn't state what/who decides the order after the End of the Turn and before the next M/H phase (e.g., during the organization phase). So should the hazard player really decide how many region cards are played during the organization phase? This discrepancy seems to arise because Region Cards are played with the new site during the organization phase under the normal rules, but the Tournament Policy allows a map to be used instead of region cards and when using a map the regions in the site path don't have to be determined until each company's M/H phase. I don't see how a company could have a longer site path than that allowed by the order set by the hazard player. So the ICE ruling seems correct.

[Konrad Klar]

I think it would have to apply in the organization phase. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to play a new site not knowing how many regions you could move.

It may be decided at other moment than the moment at which it is applicable.

[Konrad Klar]

The post linked by Konrad notes that Annotation 26 doesn't state what/who decides the order after the End of the Turn and before the next M/H phase (e.g., during the organization phase).

The post itself is not a rule.
But it is exactly the purpose of the proposal the post is presenting.
Filling the gap* leaved by:
"Once this interpretation is established, all further actions
are applied in the order they are resolved for the rest of the turn."


As usual: limited respect for Companion.
Seems like that if a resource player does not have a company after long-event phase, Annotation 26 does not have an effect.
The wording used for Annotation 26 in Companion is different than that used in CRF.
Where CRF says:
"Annotation 26: If at the start of a player's movement/hazard phase"
Companion says:
"Annotation 26: If at the start of a movement/hazard phase"

No one is forced to respect CRF. If some statement present in rules book, in rules booklet, or in suplement is changed in CRF, someone may stay with original version.

@Bergil
Due to shortcomings of current text of Annotation 26, currently no one and nothing decides about order of applying of effects in question.

*) gap that maybe does not exist, according to your most recent opinion known to me:
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 832#p32832

But isn't that "gap" already covered by the normal timing rules indicating that all actions are applied in the order that they are resolved. This rule still applies at the beginning of the turn through the end of the long-event phase.

[Bergil]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful answers!

[CDavis7M]

*) gap that maybe does not exist, according to your most recent opinion known to me:
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 832#p32832

But isn't that "gap" already covered by the normal timing rules indicating that all actions are applied in the order that they are resolved. This rule still applies at the beginning of the turn through the end of the long-event phase.

I said that Annotation 26 doesn't mention what cover the "gap" in the timing rules. We agree on this. But I just think that the other timing rules apply and you seem to think that they don't.

If the effects are triggered by passive conditions, then Annotations 9 and 10 will cover it the order of applying such effects. If the effects are not triggered by passive conditions the normal timing rules will apply. There is never a point in the game where timing rules don't apply (except setup).

From the wording, No Way Forward and Short Legs are Slow don't appear to be applying effects using passive conditions (how could they? would their effects triggered when playing of a region card is declared in order to cancel the play of that region? No.).

Instead, No Way Forward and Short Legs are Slow appear to be modifying the rules for playing region cards. So during the organization phase when Annotation 26 doesn't apply, No Way Forward and Short Legs are Slow would have a net effect based on the order in which they resolved. This only matters if you are playing region cards and not using a map. If you were playing with a Map according to the Tournament Policy, then the site path would be decided when revealing a site, after the hazard player had set the order per annotation 26.

When other hazard effects are triggered at the same time by a passive condition, they would resolve in the order set by the resource player per Annotation 10. Annotation 26 just allows whichever player is the hazard player to re-decide the order of applying effects. This really only makes sense for environmental effects where one player might want a different site path. Situations where a player would want to apply net hazard effects more gently are so rare as to not be worth discussing.

[Konrad Klar]

Play according the rules. I do not have a worse wishes for you.