Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

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gollum51
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Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Post by gollum51 »

Which cards can be retrieved with this Palantir?
1- only cards with the explicitly printed mention « sage-only »
OR 2- this also includes cards than require a sage like e.g. look more closely later? If so is there somewhere a definitive list of valid cards for Palantir of A?

Thanks

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Post by Konrad Klar »

CRF, Rulings by Term, Sage Only wrote:Any card requiring a sage to play is a sage only card.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Post by CDavis7M »

>Is Look more Closely Later a Sage Only card?
Yes. Any card requiring a sage to play is considered a sage only card.

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"Sage only" means "playable on (target) a sage." You can tell that other non-sage-only cards are actually "sage only" because they are either (A) playable on a sage (and nothing else) or (b) none of the actions can resolve without a sage (the sage is required).

"Sage only" cards that don't state "sage only":
Dragon-lore
Fireworks
Into the Smoking Cone
Look More Closely Later
Marvels Told
Master of Wood, Water, or Hill
Memories Recalled
Secret Entrance
Warm Now Be Heart and Limb
When I Know Anything
When You Know More
Wielded Twice
Update: Vein of Arda
Last edited by CDavis7M on Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Post by Konrad Klar »

...
Gnaw with Words
...
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CDavis7M
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Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:07 am
...
Gnaw with Words
...
Is not a "card requiring a sage to play." And it is a hazard. And you called me a troll!

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Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:19 pm
Is not a "card requiring a sage to play." And it is a hazard. And you called me a troll!
Is also not a "card requiring a diplomat to play"?
What it requires then?

Is not Spies Feared played for first effect a card requiring scout skill and as such a valid target for Searching Eye?
Against the Shadow: Spies Feared
Resource: Permanent-event

Scout or Ranger only. Playable on a [-me_sh-] if one of your scouts is there or on a [-me_rl-] if one of your rangers is there. An automatic-attack is created at the site against minion companies: Orcs-5 strikes with 8 prowess (detainment). Additionally, all automatic-attacks at the site are duplicated (including the new one) against all companies. Discard when site is discarded or returned to your location deck.
The Lidless Eye: Searching Eye
Hazard: Short-event

Cancel and discard any card requiring scout skill before it is resolved or cancel any ongoing effect of a card that required scout skill to play. If this card is played as an on-guard card, it can be revealed during the opponent's site phase to cancel and discard a card requiring scout skill before it is resolved.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Post by CDavis7M »

Gnaw With Words is not a "card requiring a sage to play" because it can be played even if there are no sages.

The CRF statement explains that certain cards without the "sage only" keyword or playability condition can still be considered "sage only" if the card requires a Sage to play it. Spies Feared already has keywords reflecting the playability conditions. The CRF statement doesn't apply to Spies Feared, even if the CRF statement were expanded to other skills.

Searching Eye specifically says "any card requiring scout skill" instead of "any Scout only card." It can cancel cards that don't state "Scout only."

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Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:37 pm
Gnaw With Words is not a "card requiring a sage to play" because it can be played even if there are no sages.
Spies Feared can be played even if there are no scouts. Spies Feared can be played even if there are no rangers.
But for its first effect Spies Feared requires a scout; for its other effect Spies Feared requires a ranger.
Spies Feared is Scout only or Ranger only.

For its primary effect Gnaw with Words requires a sage (and the requirement cannot be fulfilled by something else).
For its alternative effect Gnaw with Words requires a diplomat (and the requirement cannot be fulfilled by something else).

Conversely Vein of Arda requires for its only effect either sage or dwarf. Therefore it is not considered sage only card.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:20 am
Spies Feared can be played even if there are no scouts. Spies Feared can be played even if there are no rangers.
But for its first effect Spies Feared requires a scout; for its other effect Spies Feared requires a ranger.
Spies Feared is Scout only or Ranger only.
For its primary effect Gnaw with Words requires a sage (and the requirement cannot be fulfilled by something else).
For its alternative effect Gnaw with Words requires a diplomat (and the requirement cannot be fulfilled by something else).
Spies Fear is expressly includes the keywords "Scout or Ranger only." This is a design decision for this specific card. The CRF entry on "Sage only" is describes how Palantir of Annuminas is intended to work, it does not create a paradigm for making up keywords for cards that do not have them beyond that.

Furthermore, if you want to make up rules based on paradigm, why not recognize the actual design paradigm of the "skill only" keyword/condition being used to describe the skill required for the character playing the card. Hazards are not played by characters. There is no way for Gnaw With Words to be considered to have a keyword that is only used to describe resources played by characters.

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Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Post by Konrad Klar »

I am not tied to your paradigms (that you may consider as not yours but ICE's paradigms, OK...) .

If a card has multiple alternative effects, one requiring X, other requiring Y, another requiring Z and so on, until played the card is considered a card requiring X, requiring Y, requiring Z.
It may not be said that Ruse in hand, sideboard, or pile, is neither requiring diplomat, nor scout.
Sometimes X may be like "Sage or Dwarf", then the card is "Sage or Dwarf only" but not "Sage only".
CRF, Rulings by Term, Sage Only wrote:Any card requiring a sage to play is a sage only card.
does not restrict the definition to resources. Add such restriction and Gnaw With Words will be ruled out.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:38 am
If a card has multiple alternative effects, one requiring X, other requiring Y, another requiring Z and so on, until played the card is considered a card requiring X, requiring Y, requiring Z.
Logic: If a card has multiple alternatives as stated, then the card can be considered to require X OR Y OR Z. It is not a card requiring all 3 of X, Y, and Z. Only 1 of those 3. "

A card requiring a Sage OR alternatively a Diplomat is a card that can be played without a sage. So it is not a card that requires a Sage. Palantir of Annuminas cannot retrieve Gnaw With Words.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:38 am
It may not be said that Ruse in hand, sideboard, or pile, is neither requiring diplomat, nor scout.
... It may be said because Ruse the card does not require a Diplomat since it can be played without a Diplomat. It also does not require a Scout because it can be played without a Scout. It requires either a Diplomat OR alternatively a Scout, but not both.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:38 am
Sometimes X may be like "Sage or Dwarf", then the card is "Sage or Dwarf only" but not "Sage only".
Vein of Arda actually is a "sage only" card by virtue of actually having the words "Sage or Dwarf only" written in the card text. The CRF statement "Any card requiring a sage to play is a sage only card" is intended to expand "sage only" to cards that do not explicitly used those words.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:38 am
CRF, Rulings by Term, Sage Only wrote:Any card requiring a sage to play is a sage only card.
does not restrict the definition to resources. Add such restriction and Gnaw With Words will be ruled out.
Gnaw With Words is already ruled out because it is not a "card requiring a sage to play" since it can be played without a Sage. Gnaw With Words merely has an alternatively declared effect that requires a sage, the card itself does not require a Sage.

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Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Post by Konrad Klar »

I see an essential difference between requirements of Ruse, Spies Feared AND requirements of Vein of Arda.

Where first two may be considered Diplomat only/Scout only, Scout only/Ranger only, Vein of Arda may be considered "Sage or Dwarf only".
Where first two require for their effects Diplomat/Scout/Ranger and the requirements of skills cannot be fulfilled by anything else. Vein of Arda only effect's requirement may be fulfilled either by Dwarf or Sage.

There are no cards/effects that retrieve Diplomat only/Scout only/Ranger only cards so you do not need urgently to be consistent with treating them uniformly.
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Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Post by CDavis7M »

Discussing requirements of Ruse and Spies Feared is pointless. You're trying to make up some framework where none is needed. Keywords are a design decision. If they are there, then the card is not considered to have them. But if it isn't there it isn't there -- this is ICE's framework and it applies here.

Ruse and Spies Feared already have keywords in their cards and so it doesn't matter at all what their requirements are. While its true that many later cards use "skill only" as a keyword instead of a playability condition (having the condition be "playable on a skill" instead of "skill only"), there is not necessarily a relation between the requirements of the cards and their keywords beyond the CRF on "sage only."

Ruse is both "Diplomat only" and "Scout only" because both of those terms are included in Ruse's card text. It's there. Its conditions/requirements don't matter at all.

Spies Feared is both "Scout only" and "Ranger only" because the expression "Scout or Ranger only" in Spies Feared means "Scout only or Ranger only." It's in the text. It doesn't matter that Spies Feared doesn't necessarily require a Scout, it's still "Scout only" because the words are there.

Vein of Arda is "Sage only" because the expression "Sage or Dwarf only" means "Sage only or Dwarf only." It's there. It doesn't matter whether Vein of Arda can be played without a Sage because "Sage only" is there in the card text.

Gnaw With Words is not a "Sage only" card because the expression "sage only" is not in its card text. It's not there. Since Gnaw With Words can be played without a Sage, the CRF on "Sage only" fails to make Gnaw With Words be considered "Sage only". It's that simple. It should be clear that the Designers would never give a hazard the "Sage only" or "Diplomat" only keywords. Step back - understand the game's design.

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Theo
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Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Post by Theo »

"'X or Y only' means 'X only or Y only'" is not an absolute truth. You are adding an assumption of a distributive property in keywords that is not there. Instead, a card with "X or Y only" is quite literally NOT a card with "X only" (we can still argue intended parsing semantics for whether it should be considered a card with "Y only"), which should disqualify such cards from Palantir of Annuminas, as written.

Once again, I will also ask that you stop being unnecessarily rude to other members in this community. Your diction implies that you wish to be a dictator, but that is not how the Council of Elrond worked.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:54 am
"'X or Y only' means 'X only or Y only'" is not an absolute truth.
That is what it means in English and what it means in this game.
Theo wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:54 am
Once again, I will also ask that you stop being unnecessarily rude to other members in this community. Your diction implies that you wish to be a dictator, but that is not how the Council of Elrond worked.
Bringing up bogus arguments, misleading players, and generally causing confusion is rude.

Also questionable is whether or how the Council of Elrond "works". Maybe Nero can provide insight.

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