## Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

### Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Which cards can be retrieved with this Palantir?

1- only cards with the explicitly printed mention « sage-only »

OR 2- this also includes cards than require a sage like e.g. look more closely later? If so is there somewhere a definitive list of valid cards for Palantir of A?

Thanks

1- only cards with the explicitly printed mention « sage-only »

OR 2- this also includes cards than require a sage like e.g. look more closely later? If so is there somewhere a definitive list of valid cards for Palantir of A?

Thanks

- Konrad Klar
- Rules Wizard
**Posts:**3393**Joined:**Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am**Location:**Wałbrzych, Poland

### Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

CRF, Rulings by Term, Sage Only wrote:Any card requiring a sage to play is a sage only card.

*We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.*

### Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

"Sage only" means "playable on (target) a sage." You can tell that other non-sage-only cards are actually "sage only" because they are either (A) playable on a sage (and nothing else) or (b) none of the actions can resolve without a sage (the sage is required).>Is Look more Closely Later a Sage Only card?

Yes. Any card requiring a sage to play is considered a sage only card.

------- "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" -------

Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien Remove spamblock to reply by email

Assistant Editor, Iron Crown Enterprises Me:CCG Official Netrep

http://www.cstone.net/~ichabod/ Alternate Official Me:CCG Website

------- "We shall pick up an existence by its frogs" -Fort -------

"Sage only" cards that don't state "sage only":

Dragon-lore

Fireworks

Into the Smoking Cone

Look More Closely Later

Marvels Told

Master of Wood, Water, or Hill

Memories Recalled

Secret Entrance

Warm Now Be Heart and Limb

When I Know Anything

When You Know More

Wielded Twice

Update: Vein of Arda

Last edited by CDavis7M on Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

- Konrad Klar
- Rules Wizard
**Posts:**3393**Joined:**Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am**Location:**Wałbrzych, Poland

### Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

...

Gnaw with Words

...

Gnaw with Words

...

*We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.*

### Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Is not a "card requiring a sage to play." And it is a hazard. And you called me a troll!

- Konrad Klar
- Rules Wizard
**Posts:**3393**Joined:**Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am**Location:**Wałbrzych, Poland

### Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Is also not a "card requiring a diplomat to play"?

What it requires then?

Is not Spies Feared played for first effect a card requiring scout skill and as such a valid target for Searching Eye?

Against the Shadow: Spies Feared

Resource: Permanent-event

Scout or Ranger only. Playable on a [-me_sh-] if one of your scouts is there or on a [-me_rl-] if one of your rangers is there. An automatic-attack is created at the site against minion companies: Orcs-5 strikes with 8 prowess (detainment). Additionally, all automatic-attacks at the site are duplicated (including the new one) against all companies. Discard when site is discarded or returned to your location deck.

The Lidless Eye: Searching Eye

Hazard: Short-event

Cancel and discard any card requiring scout skill before it is resolved or cancel any ongoing effect of a card that required scout skill to play. If this card is played as an on-guard card, it can be revealed during the opponent's site phase to cancel and discard a card requiring scout skill before it is resolved.

*We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.*

### Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Gnaw With Words is not a "card requiring a sage to play" because it can be played even if there are no sages.

The CRF statement explains that certain cards without the "sage only" keyword or playability condition can still be considered "sage only" if the card requires a Sage to play it. Spies Feared already has keywords reflecting the playability conditions. The CRF statement doesn't apply to Spies Feared, even if the CRF statement were expanded to other skills.

Searching Eye specifically says "

The CRF statement explains that certain cards without the "sage only" keyword or playability condition can still be considered "sage only" if the card requires a Sage to play it. Spies Feared already has keywords reflecting the playability conditions. The CRF statement doesn't apply to Spies Feared, even if the CRF statement were expanded to other skills.

Searching Eye specifically says "

*any card requiring scout skill*" instead of "any Scout only card." It can cancel cards that don't state "Scout only."- Konrad Klar
- Rules Wizard
**Posts:**3393**Joined:**Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am**Location:**Wałbrzych, Poland

### Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Spies Feared can be played even if there are no scouts. Spies Feared can be played even if there are no rangers.

But for its first effect Spies Feared requires a scout; for its other effect Spies Feared requires a ranger.

Spies Feared is Scout only or Ranger only.

For its primary effect Gnaw with Words requires a sage (and the requirement cannot be fulfilled by something else).

For its alternative effect Gnaw with Words requires a diplomat (and the requirement cannot be fulfilled by something else).

Conversely Vein of Arda requires for its only effect either sage or dwarf. Therefore it is not considered sage only card.

*We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.*

### Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Spies Fear is expressly includes the keywords "Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:20 amSpies Feared can be played even if there are no scouts. Spies Feared can be played even if there are no rangers.

But for its first effect Spies Feared requires a scout; for its other effect Spies Feared requires a ranger.

Spies Feared is Scout only or Ranger only.

For its primary effect Gnaw with Words requires a sage (and the requirement cannot be fulfilled by something else).

For its alternative effect Gnaw with Words requires a diplomat (and the requirement cannot be fulfilled by something else).

*Scout or Ranger only.*" This is a design decision for this specific card. The CRF entry on "Sage only" is describes how Palantir of Annuminas is intended to work, it does not create a paradigm for making up keywords for cards that do not have them beyond that.

Furthermore, if you want to make up rules based on paradigm, why not recognize the actual design paradigm of the "skill only" keyword/condition being used to describe the skill required for the character playing the card. Hazards are not played by characters. There is no way for Gnaw With Words to be considered to have a keyword that is only used to describe resources played by characters.

- Konrad Klar
- Rules Wizard
**Posts:**3393**Joined:**Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am**Location:**Wałbrzych, Poland

### Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

I am not tied to your paradigms (that you may consider as not yours but ICE's paradigms, OK...) .

If a card has multiple alternative effects, one requiring X, other requiring Y, another requiring Z and so on, until played the card is considered a card requiring X, requiring Y, requiring Z.

It may not be said that Ruse in hand, sideboard, or pile, is neither requiring diplomat, nor scout.

Sometimes X may be like "Sage or Dwarf", then the card is "Sage or Dwarf only" but not "Sage only".

If a card has multiple alternative effects, one requiring X, other requiring Y, another requiring Z and so on, until played the card is considered a card requiring X, requiring Y, requiring Z.

It may not be said that Ruse in hand, sideboard, or pile, is neither requiring diplomat, nor scout.

Sometimes X may be like "Sage or Dwarf", then the card is "Sage or Dwarf only" but not "Sage only".

does not restrict the definition to resources. Add such restriction and Gnaw With Words will be ruled out.CRF, Rulings by Term, Sage Only wrote:Any card requiring a sage to play is a sage only card.

*We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.*

### Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Logic: If a card has multiple alternatives as stated, then the card can be considered to require X OR Y OR Z. It is not a card requiring all 3 of X, Y, and Z. Only 1 of those 3. "Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:38 amIf a card has multiple alternative effects, one requiring X, other requiring Y, another requiring Z and so on, until played the card is considered a card requiring X, requiring Y, requiring Z.

A card requiring a Sage OR alternatively a Diplomat is a card that can be played without a sage. So it is not a

**that requires a Sage.**

*card***Palantir of Annuminas cannot retrieve Gnaw With Words.**

... It may be said because Ruse the card does not require a Diplomat since it can be played without a Diplomat. It also does not require a Scout because it can be played without a Scout. It requires either a Diplomat OR alternatively a Scout, but not both.Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:38 amIt may not be said that Ruse in hand, sideboard, or pile, is neither requiring diplomat, nor scout.

Vein of Arda actually is a "Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:38 amSometimes X may be like "Sage or Dwarf", then the card is "Sage or Dwarf only" but not "Sage only".

*sage only*" card by virtue of actually having the words "Sage or Dwarf only" written in the card text. The CRF statement "Any card requiring a sage to play is a sage only card" is intended to expand "sage only" to cards that do not explicitly used those words.

Gnaw With Words is already ruled out because it is not a "Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:38 amdoes not restrict the definition to resources. Add such restriction and Gnaw With Words will be ruled out.CRF, Rulings by Term, Sage Only wrote:Any card requiring a sage to play is a sage only card.

*card requiring a sage to play*" since it can be played without a Sage. Gnaw With Words merely has an alternatively declared effect that requires a sage, the card itself does not require a Sage.

- Konrad Klar
- Rules Wizard
**Posts:**3393**Joined:**Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am**Location:**Wałbrzych, Poland

### Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

I see an essential difference between requirements of Ruse, Spies Feared AND requirements of Vein of Arda.

Where first two may be considered Diplomat only/Scout only, Scout only/Ranger only, Vein of Arda may be considered "Sage or Dwarf only".

Where first two require for their effects Diplomat/Scout/Ranger and the requirements of skills cannot be fulfilled by anything else. Vein of Arda only effect's requirement may be fulfilled either by Dwarf or Sage.

There are no cards/effects that retrieve Diplomat only/Scout only/Ranger only cards so you do not need

Where first two may be considered Diplomat only/Scout only, Scout only/Ranger only, Vein of Arda may be considered "Sage or Dwarf only".

Where first two require for their effects Diplomat/Scout/Ranger and the requirements of skills cannot be fulfilled by anything else. Vein of Arda only effect's requirement may be fulfilled either by Dwarf or Sage.

There are no cards/effects that retrieve Diplomat only/Scout only/Ranger only cards so you do not need

*urgently*to be consistent with treating them uniformly.*We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.*

### Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

Discussing requirements of Ruse and Spies Feared is pointless. You're trying to make up some framework where none is needed. Keywords are a design decision. If they are there, then the card is not considered to have them. But if it isn't there it isn't there -- this is ICE's framework and it applies here.

Ruse and Spies Feared already have keywords in their cards and so it doesn't matter at all what their requirements are. While its true that many later cards use "skill only" as a keyword instead of a playability condition (having the condition be "playable on a skill" instead of "skill only"), there is not necessarily a relation between the requirements of the cards and their keywords beyond the CRF on "sage only."

Ruse is both "Diplomat only" and "Scout only" because both of those terms are included in Ruse's card text. It's there. Its conditions/requirements don't matter at all.

Spies Feared is both "Scout only" and "Ranger only" because the expression "

Vein of Arda is "Sage only" because the expression "Sage or Dwarf only" means "Sage only or Dwarf only." It's there. It doesn't matter whether Vein of Arda can be played without a Sage because "Sage only" is there in the card text.

Gnaw With Words is not a "Sage only" card because the expression "sage only" is not in its card text. It's not there. Since Gnaw With Words can be played without a Sage, the CRF on "Sage only" fails to make Gnaw With Words be considered "Sage only". It's that simple. It

Ruse and Spies Feared already have keywords in their cards and so it doesn't matter at all what their requirements are. While its true that many later cards use "skill only" as a keyword instead of a playability condition (having the condition be "playable on a skill" instead of "skill only"), there is not necessarily a relation between the requirements of the cards and their keywords beyond the CRF on "sage only."

Ruse is both "Diplomat only" and "Scout only" because both of those terms are included in Ruse's card text. It's there. Its conditions/requirements don't matter at all.

Spies Feared is both "Scout only" and "Ranger only" because the expression "

*Scout or Ranger only*" in Spies Feared means "Scout only or Ranger only." It's in the text. It doesn't matter that Spies Feared doesn't necessarily require a Scout, it's still "Scout only" because the words are there.Vein of Arda is "Sage only" because the expression "Sage or Dwarf only" means "Sage only or Dwarf only." It's there. It doesn't matter whether Vein of Arda can be played without a Sage because "Sage only" is there in the card text.

Gnaw With Words is not a "Sage only" card because the expression "sage only" is not in its card text. It's not there. Since Gnaw With Words can be played without a Sage, the CRF on "Sage only" fails to make Gnaw With Words be considered "Sage only". It's that simple. It

**be clear that the Designers would never give a hazard the "Sage only" or "Diplomat" only keywords. Step back - understand the game's design.***should*### Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

"'X or Y only' means 'X only or Y only'" is not an absolute truth. You are adding an assumption of a distributive property in keywords that is not there. Instead, a card with "X or Y only" is quite literally NOT a card with "X only" (we can still argue intended parsing semantics for whether it should be considered a card with "Y only"), which

Once again, I will also ask that you stop being unnecessarily rude to other members in this community. Your diction implies that you wish to be a dictator, but that is not how the Council of Elrond worked.

*should*disqualify such cards from Palantir of Annuminas, as written.Once again, I will also ask that you stop being unnecessarily rude to other members in this community. Your diction implies that you wish to be a dictator, but that is not how the Council of Elrond worked.

It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.

One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!

One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!

### Re: Palantir of Annuminas - list of valid cards

That is what it means in English and what it means in this game.

Bringing up bogus arguments, misleading players, and generally causing confusion is rude.

Also questionable is whether or how the Council of Elrond "works". Maybe Nero can provide insight.