Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

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Konrad Klar
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Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Konrad Klar »

The Lidless Eye: Wisdom to Wield
Resource: Short-event

Sage only. Playable on a non-Ringwraith sage bearing a Dwarven Ring and/or a Palantír. This turn the sage: bears the Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf or is able to use the Palantír. "'But one at least Saruman must have obtained and mastered to his purposes.'"-LotRIII
Although Orcs and Trolls under control of FW cannot use hero items, Dwarves do not have such limitation. So FW's Orc or Troll under effect of Wisdom to Wield may be able to use a hero Dwarven Ring.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Nope. It's still an orc. The card effect does not change that.

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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Konrad Klar »

Target does not count as Dwarf for purposes of using Dwarven Ring, much like ally that counts as a character for purposes of combat.
Such ally retains limitation of an ally and a resource; the ally cannot collect of items from eliminated characters, does not make a cc, corruption cards cannot be played on it.

Target bears the Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf.
Orc/Troll may bear a hero item, but may not use it.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

The effect "bears the Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf" does not modify or override the FW orcs/troll rules that "all bonuses and special abilities are ignored" and that they "may not tap to initiate an effect from a hero resource."

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Konrad Klar »

Still, target bears the Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf.

If the non-Dwarf target would be considered both as Dwarf bearer of minion Dwarven Ring and as non-Dwarf bearer of the same ring then he should receive both bonuses that apply to Dwarf and bonuses that apply to non-Dwarf.

Some consistency would require that...
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CDavis7M
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Just because an orc counts as a dwarf for purposes of bearing a dwarven ring, that does not mean the orc counts as a dwarf for the MEWH special orc and troll rules or any other purposes.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Konrad Klar »

Right.

But Orc does not count as Dwarf for purposes of bearing a Dwarven Ring. He bears the ring as though he were a Dwarf.
(that has also downsides, because then the ring gives him more of CPs).
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CDavis7M
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:35 pm
So FW's Orc or Troll under effect of Wisdom to Wield may be able to use a hero Dwarven Ring.
While the Orc satisfies the conditions of the Dwarven Ring's effect, the Orc is unable to use or tap for the effect due to the MEWH restrictions on orcs.

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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Konrad Klar »

Like someone considered Dwarf at some checkpoint would be halted at the same checkpoint because he is considered Orc.

Dwarf under control of minion player is able to bear Dwarven Ring as a Dwarf (first checkpoint), but characters of minion player are unable to use hero items (second checkpoint).

Limitations regarding of using the hero items by FW Orcs/Trolls come from their race.
Limitations regarding of using the hero items by characters under control of minion player come from fact that they are controlled by minion player.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

There are two restrictions. Wisdom to Wield only overcomes one of them.

Providing an analogy that is has no basis in the rules is pointless.

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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Theo »

Here is the full sentence, which a previous post took a piece of "out of context" of the rest of the sentence:
MEWH wrote:An Orc or Troll character may be the bearer of a hero item, but all bonuses and special abilities are ignored (all restrictions to movement and playability still apply).
My interpretation would be that the "but" conjunctive clause implies that bonuses and abilities being ignored is in fact due to an Orc or Troll bearing the item. There are no "separate" restrictions on orcs and trolls needing to ignore bonuses and abilities on items. E.g., Potion of Prowess borne by another character in their company will still give orcs and trolls +1 prowess when discarded.

So I would absolutely reason that Wisdom to Wield would allow a Orc or Troll to use a hero Dwarven Ring.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:27 am
So I would absolutely reason that Wisdom to Wield would allow a Orc or Troll to use a hero Dwarven Ring.
But a even if the FW Orc counts as a Dwarf, the Dwarven Ring borne by that FW Orc doesn't have any special abilities to use.

Wisdom to Wield doesn't modify the MEWH rule.

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