Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Konrad Klar »

OK. Then character that is normally FW player's Elf, bears a hero Dwarven Ring and is under effect of Wisdom to Wield.

1.
Values printed on Dwarven Ring card check whether he is a Dwarf bearer, or other bearer. Result: is a Dwarf bearer. Right?
Text of the ring checks for the same; may the bearer tap the ring for effect, or not? Result: is a Dwarf bearer. Right?
FW rule that checks whether character of some race can use hero Dwarven Ring he bears, checks for the same. Result: is a Dwarf bearer. Right?

Anti-1.
Yes, you can use it because you are a Dwarf bearer; but no, you cannot use it because you are an Orc.
Even the additional text "for all purposes"would not change it. Bearer is a Dwarf bearer (for all purposes), but character is an Orc.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Your reasoning is not compliant with ICE's ruling framework.
CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:06 am
ICE wrote:The main thing to remember, when making rulings based on the rules and the cards, is that if it isn't there, then it isn't there. If a card says a site counts as a Haven for purposes of healing, that does not mean the site counts as a Haven for any other purposes. If a card says it can be played as a resource, that does not mean it counts as a resource at any time except when it is being played. Remember: If it isn't there, it isn't there.
Just because an Orc is considered a Dwarf for one single purpose does not mean that he is not considered an orc for any other purpose. If it isn't there it isn't there.

The FW's Orc is still an Orc. The hero version of the Dwarven Ring is still a hero resource item. And so the FW's Orc cannot use it.
The effect "bears the Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf" does not mean that the character is not an Orc. The hypothetical effect stating that the character is not considered an Orc isn't there. If it isn't there, it isn't there.

A character being considered a Dwarf for the purpose bearing a particular Dwarven Ring does not mean that the character is considered a Dwarf for purposes of the MEWH restriction against tapping to initiate effects of hero resources. The Orc under the effect of Wisdom to Wield does not count as a Dwarf for purposes of tapping to initiate effects of hero resources.

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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:15 pm
The effect "bears the Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf" does not mean that the character is not an Orc. The hypothetical effect stating that the character is not considered an Orc isn't there. If it isn't there, it isn't there.
Yes.
Only thing that must be figured out (moot point) is whether given text checks for a race of a bearer, or rather for a race of a character.
This may be done consistently or not.
If something does work because X is treated as bearer of some race (regardless of normal race of X), and at the same time something else does not work, because the check returns a race of X, but not race of bearer, then this is done inconsistently.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:32 am
Only thing that must be figured out (moot point) is whether given text checks for a race of a bearer, or rather for a race of a character.
The MEWH restrictions are based on the race of the character, not the race of the bearer:

Image

These restrictions still apply to a Fallen-wizard's Orc character that bears a Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf.

If fact, an understanding of the timing rules will show that the Dwarven Ring's abilities are already ignored before there is a chance to activate the Dwarven Ring. As such, there is no ability to be used even if they bear the ring as though they were a Dwarf. I already said this:
CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:59 am
But a even if the FW Orc counts as a Dwarf, the Dwarven Ring borne by that FW Orc doesn't have any special abilities to use.
It works like this:
  1. A fallen-wizard player plays an Orc character.
  2. The orc character obtains a hero Dwarven Ring item
  3. After the Orc bears the hero Dwarven Ring, the bonuses and special abilities of that hero Dwarven Ring item are ignored.
  4. After the Orc bears the hero Dwarven Ring, Wisdom to Wield may be played on the sage Orc that bears the hero Dwarven Ring.
  5. The bonuses and special abilities of that hero Dwarven Ring item will already be ignored per the timing rules before there is an opportunity to activate the Ring's abilities as granted by Wisdom to Wield.

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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Konrad Klar »

Still I think that a Dwarf bearer taps for an effect of Dwarven Ring. As stated by texts of such rings.
This why it may work even if bearer is otherwise an Elf.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:40 pm
Still I think that a Dwarf bearer taps for an effect of Dwarven Ring.
As explained above, a Dwarven Ring born by a fallen-wizard's Orc character already has its special abilities ignored before there is any opportunity to tap.

Furthermore, again and again I have to point out this restriction in MEWH: "An Orc or Troll character may not tap to initiate an effect from a hero resource." A hero dwarven ring is a hero resource. It doesn't matter whether the Orc bears the Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf because the Orc initiates the effects of hero resources as an Orc, and such initiation by FW Orcs is strictly prohibited.

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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Konrad Klar »

In other words (because everything actually has been said):
Everything what happens with Dwarven Ring happens in context of its bearer. Bearers has X race, but not Y race. Dwarf bearer can tap for effect of such ring, bearer of other race cannot (he may be prevented, or he just would not have such ability). Dwarf bearer has some bonuses, some CPs, the ring he bears gives some MPs: bearer of other race has other bonuses, other CPs, the ring he bears gives other amount of MPs.
Bearer of both Dwarf and non-Dwarf race could have the two sets.
Race of bearer is an enclosure for the effects, like Crown of Flowers is an enclosure for a resource played with it. There may be Doors of Night in play globally, but for the resource there is Gates of Morning and no Doors of Night.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:14 pm
Everything what happens with Dwarven Ring happens in context of its bearer.
NOT everything of what happens with Dwarven Rings happens in the context of its bearer because there are rules such as the MEWH restriction on Orcs and Trolls that also affects what happens with the Dwarven Ring.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:14 pm
Dwarf bearer has some bonuses, some CPs, the ring he bears gives some MPs: bearer of other race has other bonuses, other CPs, the ring he bears gives other amount of MPs.
Bearer of both Dwarf and non-Dwarf race could have the two sets.
No, such a bearer could not have the two sets. They are alternatives.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:14 pm
Race of bearer is an enclosure for the effects, like Crown of Flowers is an enclosure for a resource played with it.
You're just making up stuff. "Enclosure for the effects" is not a term of MECCG.

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Not once in this discussion have your provided basis in the rules for your understanding. You're just making stuff up that's inconsistent with the MECCG rules and with ICE's rulings.

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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:18 pm
No, such a bearer could not have the two sets. They are alternatives.
If they are alternatives, then there is no such a bearer.
I said what would happen if there would be such a bearer.
I think that Orc under effect of Wisdom to Wield is Dwarf bearer, but not Orc bearer of Dwarven Ring.
CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:18 pm
You're just making up stuff. "Enclosure for the effects" is not a term of MECCG.
"Stuff" is not a term of MECCG too. "Paralel"is not a term of MECCG too.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Theo »

CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:25 pm
The MEWH restrictions are based on the race of the character, not the race of the bearer:
Incomplete. Again, the restrictions [of ignoring bonuses and special abilities] are based on the item being borne by a character of a specific race. It is not a restriction to a specific race regardless of whether the item is borne by that race. If the item is considered borne by a character of a different race, then the restrictions cannot apply.

This isn't a parlor trick by some cheap conjurer, it's just how the text is written.

[edited for clarity]
Last edited by Theo on Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:01 am
CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:25 pm
The MEWH restrictions are based on the race of the character, not the race of the bearer:
Incomplete. Again, the restrictions are based on the item being borne by a character of a specific race. It is not a restriction to a specific race regardless of whether the item is borne by that race. If the item is considered borne by a character of a different race, then the restrictions cannot apply.

This isn't a parlor trick by some cheap conjurer, it's just how the text is written.
You're making stuff up that isn't there. The rule merely mentions items being borne. The restrictions are clearly placed on Orc and Troll characters as opposed to non-orc and troll characters. "An Orc or Troll character may..." The rule applies to Orc and Troll characters regardless of whether they bear a ring as though they were a Dwarf. The rule is not limited to an Orc bearing an item as an Orc. If it isn't there it isn't there.

And you failed to explain how the Orc could overcome the restriction against tapping to initiate effects of hero resources, which doesn't mention anything about bearing the resource.

"An Orc or Troll character may not tap to initiate an effect from a hero resource." The FW Orc is still an Orc for purposes of tapping to initiate hero resource effects, like the effect of a hero Dwarven Ring.

Stop pretending that some Lidless Eye card can overcome the strict MEWH restrictions.

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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Theo »

CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:00 am
You're making stuff up that isn't there.
What?
CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:00 am
The rule merely mentions items being borne.
Oh, so you think I didn't make that up. Contradicting yourself?
CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:00 am
The restrictions are clearly placed on Orc and Troll characters as opposed to non-orc and troll characters.
You have a strange knack for using the word "clearly" when you are wrong, or rather in this case, as I said before, incomplete.
CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:00 am
"An Orc or Troll character may..." The rule applies to Orc and Troll characters regardless of whether they bear a ring as though they were a Dwarf. The rule is not limited to an Orc bearing an item as an Orc. If it isn't there it isn't there.
What rule? Oh wait, you cut out the part you wanted to ignore again. "An Orc or Troll character may be the bearer of a hero item, but all bonuses and special abilities are ignored."-MEWH The aspect of the Orc or Troll character being allowed to bear a hero item only depends on the Orc or Troll character; the aspect of bonuses and special abilities of a hero item being ignored depends on an Orc or Troll character bearing the item.
CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:00 am
And you failed to explain how the Orc could overcome the restriction against tapping to initiate effects of hero resources, which doesn't mention anything about bearing the resource.

"An Orc or Troll character may not tap to initiate an effect from a hero resource." The FW Orc is still an Orc for purposes of tapping to initiate hero resource effects, like the effect of a hero Dwarven Ring.
You might want to check your arguments. I "failed" to explain this because I don't think it's true. The original post was about whether an Orc or Troll could use a hero Dwarven Ring. You might want to actually look at a Hero Dwarven Ring card if you didn't realize there were other uses for a bearer besides a tapping effect.

If my ambiguous use in my previous post of the plural restrictions was misleading, I have tried to clarify above.
CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:00 am
Stop pretending that some Lidless Eye card can overcome the strict MEWH restrictions.
Not a great display of your wisdom considering how many cards exist that overcome strict rulebook restrictions.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Konrad Klar »

Dwarf bearer taps to initiate an effect of Dwarven Ring.
He at the same time may be Doeth, sage, warrior, but not Orc, Orc bearrer.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:01 am
Oh, so you think I didn't make that up. Contradicting yourself?
Don't lose it.

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Theo wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:01 am
The aspect of the Orc or Troll character being allowed to bear a hero item only depends on the Orc or Troll character;
Did you know that the rules prior to MEWH already allow an Orc or Troll character to be the bearer of a hero item?
Theo wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:01 am
the aspect of bonuses and special abilities of a hero item being ignored depends on an Orc or Troll character bearing the item.
Don't be ignorant. Of course using an item depends on the character bearing the item. But there is nothing in this MEWH rule to suggest that the race of the character doesn't matter and that only the race of the "bearer" matters. Furthermore, there is nothing in Wisdom to Wield that indicates that the character is ONLY considered a Dwarf and that they are NOT the Orc that they are.

If it isn't there it isn't there. Don't make stuff up.

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Theo wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:01 am
CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:00 am
Stop pretending that some Lidless Eye card can overcome the strict MEWH restrictions.
Not a great display of your wisdom considering how many cards exist that overcome strict rulebook restrictions.
The restrictions in MEWH are deliberately covered from multiple angles such that they will apply to all cases. The only (ICE) cards that overcome the Fallen-wizards restrictions in the White Hand rules come from the White Hand set. The Designers knew what they were doing.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:30 am
Dwarf bearer taps to initiate an effect of Dwarven Ring.
He at the same time may be Doeth, sage, warrior, but not Orc, Orc bearrer.
He is an Orc, therefore he is an orc bearer. Wisdom to Wield's effect may cause him to be a Dwarf bearer, but it does not cause him to not be the Orc bearer that he is. If it isn't there it isn't there.

Also, consider the meaning of parenthesis and brackets before raising your double bonus argument again.

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