Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:31 pm Also, consider the meaning of parenthesis and brackets before raising your double bonus argument again.
Just that.

When it is being determined whether bearer can tap for effect of a Dwarven Ring, the race of bearer is checked.

For FW player and hero Dwarven Ring: If the result would be like "Dwarf, Elf" then bearer could tap for the effect; Dwarf race enables it, Elf race is not obstacle.
For FW player and hero Dwarven Ring: If the result would be like "Dwarf, Orc" then bearer could not tap for the effect; Dwarf race enables it, Orc race prevents it.

But if a check for a race of bearer would give a result like "Dwarf, other race" then also a Dwarven Ring would give bonuses and CPs both for Dwarf and for other race bearer.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:30 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:31 pm Also, consider the meaning of parenthesis and brackets before raising your double bonus argument again.
But if a check for a race of bearer would give a result like "Dwarf, other race" then also a Dwarven Ring would give bonuses and CPs both for Dwarf and for other race bearer.
No it wouldn't. There are no "bonuses and CPs for other race bearer" as you suggest. You just made this up. The Dwarven ring ONLY has its normal values printed on the card and the values in parentheses and brackets that apply to a Dwarf bearer. The use of parenthesis and brackets indicates that the bonuses are alternatives. The Dwarven Ring only has 1 single prowess modifier. The prowess modifier is either +2 or, alternatively, +4 for a Dwarf. The prowess modifier is not +2 and an additional +4 if a Dwarf. This is why the prowess modifier on the Dwarven Rings are written as "+2(4)" and not "+2(+4)."

If a Dwarven Ring had two prowess modifiers as you suggested then a character that is normally a Dwarf and only a Dwarf would receive both bonuses: +9 direct influence (instead of 2 normally or 7 for a Dwarf), +6 prowess (instead of 2 normally, or 4 for a Dwarf), and 8 corruption points (instead of 3 normally or 5 for a Dwarf. Clearly this is not how it works.

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I checked ICE's ruling to see if I was right and of course I was.
ICE Netrep wrote:From: ich...@cstone.net (Ichabod)
Subject: Re: [METW] Dwarven Rings
Date: 1996/08/13
The dwarf bearer gets +7 to their d.i. The [7] only overrides the 2 on the card, not the +2. The cases you mention have no other modifiers. And no, the dwarf will not get the +2, only the +7.
There you have it from ICE. There is a single direct influence modifier that has a normal value of "2" which is override by a value of "7" for a Dwarf.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:05 pm If a Dwarven Ring had two prowess modifiers as you suggested [...]
It has one. With two alternative values. One for non-Dwarf, other for Dwarf.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:05 pm This is why the prowess modifier on the Dwarven Rings are written as "+2(4)" and not "+2(+4)."
Yes.
+2(+4) would suggest that Dwarf bearer would have cumulative + 6 to prowess bonus. +2 for all, +4 for Dwarves only.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:29 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:05 pm If a Dwarven Ring had two prowess modifiers as you suggested [...]
It has one. With two alternative values. One for non-Dwarf, other for Dwarf.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:05 pm This is why the prowess modifier on the Dwarven Rings are written as "+2(4)" and not "+2(+4)."
Yes.
+2(+4) would suggest that Dwarf bearer would have cumulative + 6 to prowess bonus. +2 for all, +4 for Dwarves only.
Then how can you arrive at this conclusion:
Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:30 pm But if a check for a race of bearer would give a result like "Dwarf, other race" then also a Dwarven Ring would give bonuses and CPs both for Dwarf and for other race bearer.
This is clearly wrong.

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Regardless, there are 2 checks for race, not 1 check.

(1) The effect of the Dwarven Ring checks whether the bearer is a Dwarf. A FW's Orc character under the effect of Wisdom to Wield if a Dwarf bearer for this purpose only.
(2) The MEWH restrictions on Orcs and Trolls check whether a character is an Orc or Troll. The FW's Orc character under the effect of Wisdom to Wield is an Orc character for purposes of these restriction.

The conditions of the Dwarven Ring may be satisfied while the action may still be prevented by MEWH.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:57 pm
ICE 1998/06/25 wrote:>So if I have a sage Ringwraith holding a Palantir at a Darkhaven and I
>play Focus Palantir on him, does the Focus Palantir card over-ride the
>normal rule that Ringwraiths cannot use items?


No, the bearer still has to be able to use items to use the Palantir,
and the Ringwraith isn't.


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The bearer of the hero Dwarven ring still has to be able to use hero items to use the hero Dwarven Ring, and the Fallen-wizard's orc isn't.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:30 pm Then how can you arrive at this conclusion:
Konrad Klar wrote: ↑25 Jan 2021, 22:30
But if a check for a race of bearer would give a result like "Dwarf, other race" then also a Dwarven Ring would give bonuses and CPs both for Dwarf and for other race bearer.
This is clearly wrong.
Have you omitted "?" somewhere?
One modifier may give two alternative values. As you explained.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:30 pm Regardless, there are 2 checks for race, not 1 check.
That is the moot point.

According to me, bearer of Dwarven Ring under effect of Wisdom to Wield is considered as Dwarf bearer of the ring WHOEVER/WHATEVER checks for it.

The theory that such a bearer would be considered as both Dwarf and non-Dwarf bearer has some consequences.
Applied consistently, or not consistently.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:51 pm According to me, bearer of Dwarven Ring under effect of Wisdom to Wield is considered as Dwarf bearer of the ring WHOEVER/WHATEVER checks for it.
Your understanding contradicts ICE's stated ruling practice. Your misunderstanding on this point is the reason why you are wrong about Wisdom to Wield. This misunderstanding has shown itself often over the years.
MECCG Collected Rulings File wrote:The main thing to remember, when making rulings based on the rules and the cards, is that if it isn't there, then it isn't there. If a card says a site counts as a Haven for purposes of healing, that does not mean the site counts as a Haven for any other purposes. If a card says it can be played as a resource, that does not mean it counts as a resource at any time except when it is being played. Remember: If it isn't there, it isn't there.
The fallen-wizard's Orc character is only considered a dwarf for the purpose of satisfying the conditions of the Dwarven Ring. The fallen-wizard's Orc character is an Orc character, not a Dwarf "bearer", for the purpose of the SPECIAL ORC & TROLL RULES such as "an Orc or Troll character may be the bearer of a hero item, but all bonuses and special abilities are ignored."

The effect of Wisdom to Wield on a Fallen-wizard's Orc bearing a Dwarven Ring just means that +7 DI is ignored, instead of +2 DI being ignored.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:57 pm Your understanding contradicts ICE's stated ruling practice. Your misunderstanding on this point is the reason why you are wrong about Wisdom to Wield. This misunderstanding has shown itself often over the years.
Your understanding leads you to use the word "clearly" frequently.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:07 pm Your understanding leads you to use the word "clearly" frequently.
Clearly.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Theo »

CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:29 pm The only (ICE) cards that overcome the Fallen-wizards restrictions in the White Hand rules come from the White Hand set.
You take cyclic logic to new levels of art. Amazing in its own way.

Could you present any direct evidence that supports your theory?

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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:29 pm But there is nothing in this MEWH rule to suggest that the race of the character doesn't matter and that only the race of the "bearer" matters.
Only if you skip over the parts that I've continued to quote and you've continued to leave out. Nothing new to say here; disbelieve whatever you like.

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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:29 pm
Theo wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:01 am the aspect of bonuses and special abilities of a hero item being ignored depends on an Orc or Troll character bearing the item.
Don't be ignorant. Of course using an item depends on the character bearing the item.
This supports my assessment that your interpretations or your communications lack precision, or both. Using an item is irrelevant for the WH rule in question; the restrictions are about bonuses and special abilities being ignored, which only occurs when the bearer is an Orc or Troll, which Wisdom to Wield effectively changes.

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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:29 pm Furthermore, there is nothing in Wisdom to Wield that indicates that the character is ONLY considered a Dwarf and that they are NOT the Orc that they are.
Except the default is for characters to have a single race (e.g. consult MELE where the attribute name is "race", not allowing multiple "races" as is the case for "skills"), so Wisdom to Wield would need to explicitly allow multiple races for the affected character to still also be considered their normal race for the purpose of bearing the ring. Let's check:
Wisdom to Wield wrote: This turn the sage: bears the Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf.
It does not say "... as though he were a Dwarf in addition to his normal race." There is the indication you missed.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:29 pm If it isn't there it isn't there. Don't make stuff up.
If there anything else that you think I'm making up here, I would welcome your insights.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:28 am
Wisdom to Wield wrote: This turn the sage: bears the Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf.
It does not say "... as though he were a Dwarf in addition to his normal race." There is the indication you missed.
You misunderstand how the rules and card effects interact. You've shown this elsewhere as well. The effect of Wisdom to Wield doesn't need to say "in addition to his normal race" for the Orc to still be an Orc. Look at the card, it's an Orc. Wisdom to Wield would need to somehow specify that the character is not considered their normal race. Since there is no such effect in Wisdom to Wield, the MEWH restrictions still apply.

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Theo wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:28 am Except the default is for characters to have a single race (e.g. consult MELE where the attribute name is "race", not allowing multiple "races" as is the case for "skills").
You're making stuff up again. There is no limitation in the rules requiring characters to have a single race. The lack of such a restriction allows Wisdom to Wield to work such that the character has more than one race for different purposes.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by Theo »

CDavis7M wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:06 pm You misunderstand how the rules and card effects interact. You've shown this elsewhere as well.
You can believe whatever you like. You've demonstrated your lack of deductive reasoning and reliance on "knowing" the designers intent without justification. At least I can progress toward better understanding because I am not delirious of what I don't know nor closed to actual deductive evidence contrary to my current beliefs. :roll:
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:06 pm The effect of Wisdom to Wield doesn't need to say "in addition to his normal race" for the Orc to still be an Orc. Look at the card, it's an Orc. Wisdom to Wield would need to somehow specify that the character is not considered their normal race. Since there is no such effect in Wisdom to Wield, the MEWH restrictions still apply.
You seem to think I said the orc isn't still an orc. I did not say that. The question is about whether the item is being borne as though the orc was an orc, or as a dwarf, or as a multirace orc + dwarf. One of these actually appears on the card text. One of these runs against the concept of race given in the printed rules, as well as all precedent of characters from Tolkien's world that are actually multiracial NOT being multiple races in MECCG.
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Re: Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:36 am One of these actually appears on the card text. One of these runs against the concept of race given in the printed rules, as well as all precedent of characters from Tolkien's world that are actually multiracial NOT being multiple races in MECCG.
First of all, I'm not saying that the character has 2 races for the same purpose. I'm saying that a character can have two different races for the two different purposes of meeting a Dwarven Ring's activation conditions and the MEWH restrictions on Orcs. Also, ICE has consistently stated that the game mechanics strict follow the rules despite any failure in the Middle-earth simulation.

The Orc character can be allowed to use a Dwarven Ring per the Dwarven Ring's own conditions while still being prevented from using the Dwarven Ring due to the MEWH restrictions.
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