Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by Konrad Klar »

1.
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:27 pm There is no competition, the player chooses.
Because there is a competition, someone must choose.

2.
There is some practice in polish law. Because there are lower taxes on magazines and newspapers, often some other goods are included and sold along with them as extras (part of magazine or newspaper).

This resembles the situation where some card/effect has something to do with HL and for this reason is treated specially. No matter what is a mechanics of the effect (happens unconditionally, or if some conditions are met).
"Played prior to a company's M/H phase" - no matter whether it is permanent-event played some turns ago or short-event played in organization phase of current turn. And who cares that a card itself cannot be implemented; only its effect?

EDIT: "pathology" > "practice" MY APOLOGIES
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Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by Theo »

I essentially agree with Konrad.

It seems to me that CDavis7M's entirely claim of certainty rests on interpreting the phrase, "Any cards which modify a company's hazard limit played prior to this point" to mean to include the hazard limit modification of Mountains of Shadow but to exclude the hazard limit modification of Mount Doom.

Although CDavis7M may insist otherwise, this phrase is linguistically incorrect. Possible corrections include:
1) "Any cards [that] modify a company's hazard limit played prior to this point"
2) "Any cards [that could] modify a company's hazard limit played prior to this point"
3) "Any cards[,] which [could] modify a company's hazard limit[,] played prior to this point"

To me, option (1) is the most reasonable. The difference from option (2), presumably favored by CDavis7M, is as Konrad has already pointed out; (1) only includes cards like Horses, and does not include cards that conditionally modify a company's hazard limit---these cards are left to the CRF ruling, which only says the effects are declared after the new site is revealed.

As Konrad has pointed out, it also does not make sense to "apply" a card to a company's base hazard limit. Regardless of (1) vs. (2), the use of "applied" with respect to a card (vs. "resolve" a hazard-limit modifying effect) implies, to me, that the effects of such candidate cards are already established. Even if establishing a passive condition for the application of the modification (such as Mountains of Shadow) was sufficient to be considered a card that (could) modify the company's hazard limit, that would then mean that one would then "apply" the establishment of the passive condition to a company's base hazard limit, which wouldn't be a sensible thing to do. Even if successfully "applied", one would still then need to resolve the passive condition.

Linguistic subtleties, but such as they are, they seem to support Konrad's stance.
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Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:40 pm It seems to me that CDavis7M's entirely claim of certainty rests on interpreting the phrase, "Any cards which modify a company's hazard limit played prior to this point" to mean to include the hazard limit modification of Mountains of Shadow but to exclude the hazard limit modification of Mount Doom.
Was Mountains of Shadow not played before Mount Doom was played? Certainly Mount Doom was not played before Mount Doom was played.
Theo wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:40 pm Although CDavis7M may insist otherwise, this phrase is linguistically incorrect. Possible corrections include:
1) "Any cards [that] modify a company's hazard limit played prior to this point"
2) "Any cards [that could] modify a company's hazard limit played prior to this point"
3) "Any cards[,] which [could] modify a company's hazard limit[,] played prior to this point"

To me, option (1) is the most reasonable. The difference from option (2), presumably favored by CDavis7M, is as Konrad has already pointed out; (1) only includes cards like Horses, and does not include cards that conditionally modify a company's hazard limit---these cards are left to the CRF ruling, which only says the effects are declared after the new site is revealed.
You're mistaken. Those cards are NOT left to the CRF ruling. There is a common fallacy among a few players which is the key the understanding many of ICE's rulings. There is no way for the CRF ruling to apply in this case. Discovering why makes many rulings clear.
Theo wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:40 pm As Konrad has pointed out, it also does not make sense to "apply" a card to a company's base hazard limit. Regardless of (1) vs. (2), the use of "applied" with respect to a card (vs. "resolve" a hazard-limit modifying effect) implies, to me, that the effects of such candidate cards are already established.
Yes... the card was already played (including resolution) at the end of the organizations phase. So the effect is "applied," not "resolved." This makes sense because normally game effects are implemented at "resolution" but in some cases the timing is specified differently.
Theo wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:40 pm Even if establishing a passive condition for the application of the modification (such as Mountains of Shadow) was sufficient to be considered a card that (could) modify the company's hazard limit, that would then mean that one would then "apply" the establishment of the passive condition to a company's base hazard limit, which wouldn't be a sensible thing to do. Even if successfully "applied", one would still then need to resolve the passive condition.
You are being unclear, if not grammatically incorrect. It is not possible to "resolve the passive condition" because a passive condition is not something that can be "resolved" in MECCG. Similarly, in MECCCG, there is no such thing as "apply" the establishment of the passive condition." You're just making words up and using them in a way that is not used by the rules of the game. Passive "conditions" are "conditions," they are not resolved or applied. It is just a condition that can be checked to see if it was met or not. The conditions are based on actions of the game, which are often resolved (though sometimes not, as is the case here), but the "passive condition" itself is not "resolved," not is it "applied."

The bottom line is that there is confusion about how the rules work. Which is easy to do when someone hasn't read the original rulings and hasn't followed the game. This has happened over and over again on this forum.

If anyone else is wondering what the fallacy is, PM me. But I don't think anyone else would be confused otherwise I would have explained why already.
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Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:57 am Mount Doom was not played before Mount Doom was played.
Right. At least the same copy of.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:57 am It is not possible to "resolve the passive condition" because a passive condition is not something that can be "resolved" in MECCG.
Right.
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Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by Konrad Klar »

CRF wrote:Effects that are played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site
path of a moving company, create an effect which is not declared until the new site is
revealed. If the site or site path is not of the appropriate type when the effect resolves,
the resource has no effect. If the company has multiple movement/hazard phases on
the same turn, the card applies separately to each phase, having an effect only if the
correct conditions are met.
If something is declared then the something potentially may resolve (otherwise it may fizzle).

Moot point (as I see it):
The effect (result/outcome) may be modification of HL, or it may be anything else. If the effect is modification of HL, it does not make the effect special. Timing is the same.
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Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:06 am
CRF wrote:Effects that are played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company, create an effect which is not declared until the new site is revealed. If the site or site path is not of the appropriate type when the effect resolves, the resource has no effect. If the company has multiple movement/hazard phases on the same turn, the card applies separately to each phase, having an effect only if the correct conditions are met.
If something is declared then the something potentially may resolve (otherwise it may fizzle).

Moot point (as I see it):
The effect (result/outcome) may be modification of HL, or it may be anything else. If the effect is modification of HL, it does not make the effect special. Timing is the same.
This is not right. The timing IS different.

Image

When the new site is revealed, modifications to the company's hazard limit played prior to the reveal are "immediately applied" without a chain of effects whereas other non-hazard-limit-modifying effects are not applied immediately but are instead declared and resolved in a chain of effects.

The base hazard limit is determined based on company size and then immediately modified at Step 1. Other non-hazard-limit effects played during the organization phase are declared after Step 1, which is in Step 2.

Image

Also, it should be clear that the rule on "effects that are played during the organization phase" does not apply to hazard limit modification effects. There is a simple reason. And this reason is a fundamental principle of ruling so it should be obvious.
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Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by Thuarval »

I think this is much ado about something that is very simple.

Mountains of Shadow is played at the end of the Organization phase. It cannot reduce a HL to less than 2.

Mount Doom is not played (revealed) until the start of the Movement Hazard phase, at which point we first discover the +2 from Mt. Doom.

Since Mountains of Shadow (which was played in the Organization phase) has to be applied immediately, it is applied before the +2 from Doom itself, who's bonus isn't known until the Movement Hazard Phase (therefore comes after the effects from the earlier phase which must be appled immediately).
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Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by Konrad Klar »

There is also movement to a site already in play.
There is also redirection to other site during M/H phase (e.g. in result of Chance of Being Lost).
Thuarval wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:19 am I think this is much ado about something that is very simple.
Yes. But I have different conclusion.
Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:30 am Similarly it is irrelevant whether Smaug Ahunt was in play at beginning of M/H phase, or has been played later. Action that the card creates is handled in the same manner.
Thuarval wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:19 am Since Mountains of Shadow (which was played in the Organization phase) has to be applied immediately, it is applied before the +2 from Doom itself, who's bonus isn't known until the Movement Hazard Phase (therefore comes after the effects from the earlier phase which must be appled immediately).
It is not always known in organization phase whether company on which Mountains of Shadow was played will move through Ithilien, and/or Gorgoroth, and/or Nurn, and/or Harondor.
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Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by Thuarval »

Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:57 am There is also movement to a site already in play.
There is also redirection to other site during M/H phase (e.g. in result of Chance of Being Lost).
I don't see the conflict here in either of these cases. The flow of play is pretty clear. WHen a company reveals a site card (or not), or even moves (or not) their HL is set according to the game's parameters. HOW the HL is determined does not change.
Even if they are given another MH phase, this does not change. Even if they are redirected elsewhere this does not change.

Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:30 am Similarly it is irrelevant whether Smaug Ahunt was in play at beginning of M/H phase, or has been played later. Action that the card creates is handled in the same manner.
"If : then" effect. It sets up a static effect that may or may not trigger. Just like Mountains of Shadow. The HL reducing effect of Mountains of Shadow does not break the rules of the game (or it would say so), so it attempts to reduce the HL beyond the lower limit of what it is allowed. - but it still has to follow the program logic. Like a credit card, just having it doesn't mean you buy whatever you want regardless of price. It has limits of efficacy, and so does Mountains of Shadow, and the limit is set by what the rules allow, not what the card tries to do.
Thuarval wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:19 am Since Mountains of Shadow (which was played in the Organization phase) has to be applied immediately, it is applied before the +2 from Doom itself, who's bonus isn't known until the Movement Hazard Phase (therefore comes after the effects from the earlier phase which must be appled immediately).
Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:30 am It is not always known in organization phase whether company on which Mountains of Shadow was played will move through Ithilien, and/or Gorgoroth, and/or Nurn, and/or Harondor.
That is completely irrelevant. All that has to be know is whether or not the company has a ranger. The rest is "if : then". If it can reduce the HL, it will. If they move through Ithilien, then... . If not, oh well.
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Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:57 am It is not always known in organization phase whether company on which Mountains of Shadow was played will move through Ithilien, and/or Gorgoroth, and/or Nurn, and/or Harondor.
Sometimes I wonder if you have ever played MECCG. Because if you had you would never have made this statement. It is absolutely known in the organization phase whether a company on which Mountains of Shadow was played will move through Ithilien etc. because a site or region card with that same name will have been placed or identified during the organization phase.

Image
Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:57 am There is also movement to a site already in play.
There is also redirection to other site during M/H phase (e.g. in result of Chance of Being Lost).
This is wrong. If a site in play is being moved to then it will have been identified and any region cards would have been placed. And redirection from a hazard would happen at Step 2 while the setting of the hazard limit and modifications happens at Step 1 before any hazards can be played. This was a design decision. Think about it -- how can hazards be played before the limit for hazards is set?
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Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:09 pm Sometimes I wonder if you have ever played MECCG. Because if you had you would never have made this statement. It is absolutely known in the organization phase whether a company on which Mountains of Shadow was played will move through Ithilien etc. because a site or region card with that same name will have been placed or identified during the organization phase.
It is always known for player proceeding his turn which site is new site of company and which regions are played.
Played face down.
It is not known even for the player, whether the company will have M/H phase. The company potentially may be eliminated before M/H phase.
You may wonder. Anytime.
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:09 pm This is wrong.
What exactly is wrong?
Situation where Mount Doom is in play since several turns and is indicated as a new site?
Description of result of Chance of Being Lost is wrong?
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:09 pm Think about it -- how can hazards be played before the limit for hazards is set?
I can think about that. If they count against HL, they cannot be played. If HL is set, some hazards, resources, actions may still modify the HL.
Was that ever moot point?
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Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by Thuarval »

Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:09 pm Sometimes I wonder if you have ever played MECCG. Because if you had you would never have made this statement. It is absolutely known in the organization phase whether a company on which Mountains of Shadow was played will move through Ithilien etc. because a site or region card with that same name will have been placed or identified during the organization phase.
It is always known for player proceeding his turn which site is new site of company and which regions are played.
Played face down.
It is not known even for the player, whether the company will have M/H phase. The company potentially may be eliminated before M/H phase.
You may wonder. Anytime.
The site is revealed at the start of the Movement Hzard Phase, so if the company is eliminated in the Organization phase, there is no revealed site, no movement and no hazard phase. It is really simple.
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:09 pm This is wrong.
Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm What exactly is wrong?
Situation where Mount Doom is in play since several turns and is indicated as a new site?
Description of result of Chance of Being Lost is wrong?
Hazard Limit calculation follows the same procedure regardless of whether or not the site is already revealed for 1000 turns. Moot point. If a cmpany is redirected to Mt. Doom, they are now moving there and their HL is increased by 2. Not neurosurgery.
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Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by Konrad Klar »

Thuarval wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:30 am Hazard Limit calculation follows the same procedure regardless of whether or not the site is already revealed for 1000 turns. Moot point. If a cmpany is redirected to Mt. Doom, they are now moving there and their HL is increased by 2. Not neurosurgery.
What to add, if anything?
That (in my opinion) exactly for the reason the modification of HL that comes from Mount Doom is not component of base hazard limit.
Often, but not always, company is moving to Mount Doom at the start of M/H phase. Sometimes it may become moving to Mount Doom in middle of M/H phase. When base hazard limit is already set.
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Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm What exactly is wrong?
Situation where Mount Doom is in play since several turns and is indicated as a new site?
Description of result of Chance of Being Lost is wrong?
You think that these situations matter and they don't. That is what is wrong.

There is a rule on the Hazard Limit. It's simple to follow.
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Re: Hazard limit inf Mt Doom with Mountains of Shadow

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:35 pm
Thuarval wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:30 am Hazard Limit calculation follows the same procedure regardless of whether or not the site is already revealed for 1000 turns. Moot point. If a cmpany is redirected to Mt. Doom, they are now moving there and their HL is increased by 2. Not neurosurgery.
What to add, if anything?
That (in my opinion) exactly for the reason the modification of HL that comes from Mount Doom is not component of base hazard limit.
Often, but not always, company is moving to Mount Doom at the start of M/H phase. Sometimes it may become moving to Mount Doom in middle of M/H phase. When base hazard limit is already set.
Of course "the modification of HL that comes from Mount Doom is not component of base hazard limit", which is set by company size. Even still, the modification from Mount Doom comes at the same game-time (Step 1) as calculating the base hazard limit as specified in The Dragons rules. It does not happen at Step 2 as you've been asserting. It also doesn't happen using Passive Condition timing as previously suggested.

The Dragons Hazard Limit rule covers situations where a company is redirected to Mount Doom. There is no problem there. And that is not the original question.

It's OK that you overlooked the rules, even though I pointed this exact same rule out to you before.

-----

By the way, one reason that some people are confused is because they don't recognize that this rule (an actual rule of the game) was published long before the clarification (which is not a rule itself) on "effects that are played during the organization phase." In the original ruling and in the ruling as published in the CRF, there is no indication that "effects that are played during the organization phase" was meant to override the Hazard Limit rules from The Dragons. Hazard Limit modifying effects were working according to The Dragon rule for about a year before the later CRF ruling. Also, there is a simple way to recognize that the CRF ruling did not change how Hazard Limit effects work. The ruling is simply a clarification, not errata. Errata would be required to contradict a rule of the game. Therefore, The Dragons rule has precedence and greater authority over the CRF ruling.
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