A few random rule questions

[CDavis7M]

I want to provoke my opponent to play the Chance of Being Lost to redirect my company to Bree and then to play Tidings of Bold Spies. And this is my motivation to play Long Grievous Siege on Orcs of Angmar and placing Bree site card off the side.

Just because a player might desire something does decide whether it's a cost or not. The rules define the victory conditions and the restrictions.

[CDavis7M]

The Lidless Eye: All Thought Bent upon It
Rarity: Uncommon, Precise: U

Resource: Short-event

Sage only. Playable during the site phase on an untapped sage at a site where Information is playable. Tap the sage and the site. Search your play deck and choose an item you must reveal to your opponent. Place this item in your hand and reshuffle your play deck. The sage makes a corruption check.

Is not illogical to expect from the card that its active condition would be both untapped sage and tapping the sage?
I know that tapping sage and site may not be most desired effects, but what if the card would fizzle?
Should a site and a sage be tapped anyway, even if main effect has not been performed?

How can an "untapped sage" be an "Active condition"? It is not something that the player actively invokes when declaring the play of this card. There is nothing active about providing a sage in the site phase. The sage was controlled by influence long ago in the organization phase. It is a condition of playing the card (ther eis a price to be paid), but this is not an active condition.

As for tapping the sage, that is certainly a cost, and tapping a character is normally an active condition which would happen at declaration. The rules might specify how things work in general but a card can always specify how it works differently. Here, All Thought Bent specifically states that an "untapped sage" is a condition of playing the card which must be present at declaration and resolution. All Thought Bent specifies that the sage is untapped when declaring and when resolving, and so the sage does not tap until resolution of the effects begin. If the card did not specify the timing, then the normal active condition timing rules would apply.

Far-sight also specifies timing of tapping the sage vs tapping the site. Many of these information permanent-events seem to be designed with card text as if their play was similar to playing an item at the site. Meaning, the character taps up front (at declaration) and then the site taps when the play of the resource is successful. This is how items, allies, and factions work. And it is how Anduril, Dragon-lore, Dreams of Lore, and Reforging work. But some Information cards don't have specific conditions regarding timing and they work differently.

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Tapping.PNG (25.61 KiB) Viewed 775 times

The thing to recognize is that a cost is a condition for playing the card regardless of whether the cost is paid up front at declaration or during resolution of the card. If the cost cannot be paid at declaration, then the card cannot even be paid. If a cost is to be paid at resolution and it's not paid, then the card is negated and discarded. A resource tapping your own card is never a "main effect" of the card. It is always a condition (cost) of the card. The card is used and this is a restriction on the player using it again until their next turn.

An action in a chain of effects is negated if the conditions required to perform it are negated by another action that is resolved before it in the chain of effects. If the condition of tapping the sage cannot be paid at resolution of All Thought Bent, then it is negated.

[Konrad Klar]

How can an "untapped sage" be an "Active condition"? It is not something that the player actively invokes when declaring the play of this card.

How a target may be an active condition? Are you ignoring Annotation 8?
It is no necessarily something that the player actively invokes, rather condition for something that player is actively invoking.

An action in a chain of effects is negated if the conditions required to perform it are negated by another action that is resolved before it in the chain of effects. If the condition of tapping the sage cannot be paid at resolution of All Thought Bent, then it is negated.

As I understand, in your opinion tapping a sage and a site are active condition.

Annotation 5: If an action requires an entity to tap as a condition for the action's main
effect, that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may
not be declared. Tap the entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the
action's declaration, i.e., it is not a separate action. When it comes time to resolve the
action in its chain of effects, that entity must still be in play and tapped or the action is
canceled.

does not foresee payments at resolution nor returning costs.

[Konrad Klar]

I want to provoke my opponent to play the Chance of Being Lost to redirect my company to Bree and then to play Tidings of Bold Spies. And this is my motivation to play Long Grievous Siege on Orcs of Angmar and placing Bree site card off the side.

Just because a player might desire something does decide whether it's a cost or not. The rules define the victory conditions and the restrictions.

Just because a player may desire (previously untapped) card to be in tapped state does not cause that Active Condition of Concealment becomes the main effect.
Hardly anyone (beside opponents of performer) likes corruption checks, but only in case of The One Ring a corruption check is condition of one of its effects.

The difference between Active Conditions and main effect lies elsewhere.

[CDavis7M]

How can an "untapped sage" be an "Active condition"? It is not something that the player actively invokes when declaring the play of this card.

How a target may be an active condition? Are you ignoring Annotation 8?
It is no necessarily something that the player actively invokes, rather condition for something that player is actively invoking.

As for Annotation 8, it states "An action that requires a target is considered to have the active condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved."

Targeting is considered to be an "active condition". It's true that targeting requires playing a card on/with another card or the player saying or doing something to indicate the target. The player actively decides to invoke the selection of the target, but they do not actively decide the existence or position/orientation of the target card.

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An action in a chain of effects is negated if the conditions required to perform it are negated by another action that is resolved before it in the chain of effects. If the condition of tapping the sage cannot be paid at resolution of All Thought Bent, then it is negated.

As I understand, in your opinion tapping a sage and a site are active condition.

They are active conditions and the Rules Annotations describe the normal timing rules for active conditions but a card might also specify different timing. Many cards specify how they work different than the normal rules, even the timing rules.

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Annotation 5: If an action requires an entity to tap as a condition for the action's main
effect, that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may
not be declared. Tap the entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the
action's declaration, i.e., it is not a separate action. When it comes time to resolve the
action in its chain of effects, that entity must still be in play and tapped or the action is
canceled.

does not foresee payments at resolution nor returning costs.

It works:

If the action of playing All Thought Bent requires the sage to tap and the site to tap as a condition for the main effect of searching your play deck for an item to put in your hand, then the sage and the site must be untapped when All Thought Bent is declare. Tap the site at this point but not the sage because even though the sage is an active condition, All Thought Bent specifically states that it is played on an untapped sage. Tapping the sage is still a condition required for All Thought Bent to have effect (not be negated) but the timing is different from the normal rules because the card says so.

When playing All Thought Bent in the site phase it does not matter whether the sage is tapped at declaration or at resolution. But the sage must tap as a condition for playing the card.

[CDavis7M]

Just because a player may desire (previously untapped) card to be in tapped state does not cause that Active Condition of Concealment becomes the main effect.

Right. The difference between the price of the action and the main effect comes from the victory conditions and restrictions set by the game mechanics and design, not from the in-game strategy decisions of the player.

Hardly anyone (beside opponents of performer) likes corruption checks, but only in case of The One Ring a corruption check is condition of one of its effects.

Making the corruption check is a condition for cancelling the strike. But the rules on active conditions are merely timing rules and the strike sequence already has its own different timing rules. The strike cancelling effect of The One Ring is made in the strike sequence and it follows the timing rules (and other rules) for the strike sequence.

[Konrad Klar]

Tapping the sage is still a condition required for All Thought Bent to have effect (not be negated) but the timing is different from the normal rules because the card says so.

I am under impression that there are only "special cases" around.

[Konrad Klar]

But the rules on active conditions are merely timing rules and the strike sequence already has its own different timing rules. The strike cancelling effect of The One Ring is made in the strike sequence and it follows the timing rules (and other rules) for the strike sequence.

Where Active Conditions do not reach?

...
Where worlds collide and days and dark
...

Adele - Skyfall

[CDavis7M]

Tapping the sage is still a condition required for All Thought Bent to have effect (not be negated) but the timing is different from the normal rules because the card says so.

I am under impression that there are only "special cases" around.

Don't forget that the rules on Active Conditions are from the Rules Annotations. They are simply annotations to the primary rules on PLAYING AND DRAWING CARDS which state "An action in a chain of effects is negated if the conditions required to perform it are negated by another action that is resolved before it in the chain of effects."
If a card specifically states "playable on an untapped sage" then that condition is required. An annotation to this rule doesn't override the main rule. That doesn't mean that tapping the sage is not also required, but it means that the timing rules in the annotations don't apply.

[Konrad Klar]

That doesn't mean that tapping the sage is not also required, but it means that the timing rules in the annotations don't apply.

That doesn't mean that tapping the sage is not also required. That doesn't mean that tapping the sage is main effect.
But if both untapped sage and tap the sage are conditions, someone who believes in it must live with it and it seems like you have developed methods to live with it.

[CDavis7M]

But if both untapped sage and tap the sage are conditions, someone who believes in it must live with it and it seems like you have developed methods to live with it.

There is no issue because one condition is met before the other. When it comes to the action of playing All Thought Bent in the chain of effects, the sage is untapped and the condition is met. Then the sage is tapped and that condition is met. This is how the card itself wants to do it. I just think the game works...