Barrow Blade - played during site phase at a ruins & lairs

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Lake Town Geezer
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Barrow Blade - played during site phase at a ruins & lairs

Post by Lake Town Geezer »

Here is something that came up in a game yesterday:

I moved to a ruins&lairs to play 'barrow blade'.

Text reads: "Tap the bearer of a dagger of westernesse during the site phase at a ruins & lairs and play this withthe dagger".

This is a permanent event, not an item. So it is the same as cards like 'choice of luthien' etc.

My take is that:
1. The dagger bearer is tapped.
2. The site is not tapped.
3. The company do not need to enter the site - it is played during the site phase at the site, it is not an item and not played in the site.
4. Auto-attack does not need to be faced to play the card.

Thoughts from the rules gurus much appreciated?
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Re: Barrow Blade - played during site phase at a ruins & lairs

Post by Vastor Peredhil »

for anything to do in the site phase you have to enter & face the AA, before anything else not matter what it is, it requires site phase you enter
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Barrow Blade - played during site phase at a ruins & lairs

Post by Konrad Klar »

I would say:
For anything to do in the site phase a company have to enter site & face the AA (if present).
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Re: Barrow Blade - played during site phase at a ruins & lairs

Post by Lake Town Geezer »

OK, just read this in the rules:

"A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an automatic-attack. Removing an automatic-attack does not directly affect it, although cancelling does."

So my guess - on first read - is you need to face auto attacks, but playing it doesn't tap the site, as:

"Play of an ally, item, faction, or resource card which will normally tap the site must be after the company resolves all automatic, agent and on-guard creature attacks."

Because it is a permanent event it doesn't tap the site unless it explicitly says so? So I could face the auto attack, play the barrow blade - doesn't tap the site - then play another item?

Compare with the 'Windlord Found Me', which explicitly says the site should be untapped then tapped when played (and is also a permanent event). It also says the site should be untapped, which barrow blade doesn't, so my guess is therefore barrow blade can also be played on a tapped site.

Compare with say, 'Return of the King'. This card doesn't specify play during the site phase, so even if Minas Tirith has an auto-attack (e.g. Fell Winter etc) I could still play this at the end of the movement/hazard phase before the site phase and not face the auto attack..
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Re: Barrow Blade - played during site phase at a ruins & lairs

Post by Konrad Klar »

Lake Town Geezer wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:01 pm Because it is a permanent event it doesn't tap the site unless it explicitly says so? So I could face the auto attack, play the barrow blade - doesn't tap the site - then play another item?
Yes. Company can play Barrow Blade even before facing eventual agent attack and/or creature on-guard.
Lake Town Geezer wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:01 pm Compare with the 'Windlord Found Me', which explicitly says the site should be untapped then tapped when played (and is also a permanent event). It also says the site should be untapped, which barrow blade doesn't, so my guess is therefore barrow blade can also be played on a tapped site.
Barrow Blade is played on Dagger of Westernesse possessed by character at [-me_rl-]. It is not played on [-me_rl-] nor at [-me_rl-].
May be played even if [-me_rl-] in question is minion site.
Lake Town Geezer wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:01 pm Compare with say, 'Return of the King'. This card doesn't specify play during the site phase, so even if Minas Tirith has an auto-attack (e.g. Fell Winter etc) I could still play this at the end of the movement/hazard phase before the site phase and not face the auto attack..
Not at the end of M/H phase. During M/H phase if Aragorn II is at Minas Tirith.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Barrow Blade - played during site phase at a ruins & lairs

Post by CDavis7M »

I know there is a lot of reluctance but I find it's much easier to just refer back to the actual rules than to talk about the rules or even to read clarifications of those same rules.

Image

For each company you can choose to either "do nothing" or "follow this procedure". Barrow Blade has a cost of tapping a bearer of a dagger during the site phase in order to be played. Playing Barrow and tapping a character is not doing nothing. So then you must "follow this procedure".

1. Enter the site.
2. Face the automatic attack.

And it's not until Step 3 that you can play a resource at the site or another resource playable during the site phase. And the rule tells you that some resources do not tap the site.

There is no way to get to Step 3 without first doing Step 2 since you must "follow this procedure" in order to be following the rules. All of the clarifications about the site phase are simply restating the need to follow this procedure. In step 2 you use the Combat rules because it says "see pages 28-34). The rule says to resolve the attack normally, which is either by facing the attack or cancelling the attack. And you can play resources during the strike sequence because that is part of "Combat". But nothing else is playable before or while facing the automatic attack because otherwise you are not following this procedure.
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Re: Barrow Blade - played during site phase at a ruins & lairs

Post by CDavis7M »

Lake Town Geezer wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:01 pm Compare with say, 'Return of the King'. This card doesn't specify play during the site phase, so even if Minas Tirith has an auto-attack (e.g. Fell Winter etc) I could still play this at the end of the movement/hazard phase before the site phase and not face the auto attack..
If Aragorn's current site is Minas Tirith than Return of the King may be played. But if Aragorn is moving to Minas Tirith then Return of the King cannot be played in the movement/hazard phase (because he doesn't arrive at the site until restrictions are put in place, see the Annotations in the MELE Companion and CRF), or until the site phase after facing any automatic attack or agent, or until after doing nothing during the site phase and then it can be played in the End of Turn phase.

Again, these annotations are clarifications are simply describing how a "procedure" works.
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Re: Barrow Blade - played during site phase at a ruins & lairs

Post by Konrad Klar »

Now I got an idea of playing the Rescue Prisoners before facing agent attack and on-guard creature, if site is already tapped. Higher chance of preserving untapped character.
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Re: Barrow Blade - played during site phase at a ruins & lairs

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:19 am Now I got an idea of playing the Rescue Prisoners before facing agent attack and on-guard creature, if site is already tapped. Higher chance of preserving untapped character.
That does not work.
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Re: Barrow Blade - played during site phase at a ruins & lairs

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:37 pm That does not work.
For reasons already explained by you in this thread or for other reasons?
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Re: Barrow Blade - played during site phase at a ruins & lairs

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:40 am
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:37 pm That does not work.
For reasons already explained by you in this thread or for other reasons?
Besides following the rules on the Site Phase, if an agent attack were enacted "immediately" (before any other actions), I don't see how the spider attack of Rescue Prisoners could be declared and resolved if attacks are resolved one at a time. The combat involving the agent attack has already begun and the attack is in the process of being resolved.

The CRF clarification "play of an ally, item, faction, or resource card which will normally tap the site must be after ... an agent attack" is based on the rules and rationales I gave above. This clarification is an explanation of the site phase rules, not a standalone rule and certainly not an allowance for non-site-tapping resources.
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Re: Barrow Blade - played during site phase at a ruins & lairs

Post by Konrad Klar »

OK.
I see an unwritten rule "attack may not be declared during facing other attack" in effect.
So according the rule also Hidden Knife is not allowed at the point.
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Re: Barrow Blade - played during site phase at a ruins & lairs

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:44 pm OK.
I see an unwritten rule "attack may not be declared during facing other attack" in effect.
So according the rule also Hidden Knife is not allowed at the point.
Well, the rules also say "During combat, no attack may be actively declared" Maybe it's stricter than "resolving one at a time" (mentioned above) or maybe its the same thing said a different way. Let me know if you want a picture of it. See the end of MELE.

As for Hidden Knife, the CRF used to say more about it. Some of these longer rulings got consolidated or completely deleted over time. I've found that it's typically the correct rulings which were deleted/summarized/later made incorrect while the outdated rulings were left in.
CRF 4 wrote:Hidden Knife


Hidden Knife is effectively an attack. As per the rule about attacks must
be the first items declared in a chain of effects, Hidden Knife must be so
played. Thus, if your opponent reveals an agent during your site phase and
attacks with it, you must wait until after this attack to play Hidden
Knife.
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Re: Barrow Blade - played during site phase at a ruins & lairs

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:59 pm Well, the rules also say "During combat, no attack may be actively declared" Maybe it's stricter than "resolving one at a time" (mentioned above) or maybe its the same thing said a different way. Let me know if you want a picture of it. See the end of MELE.
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Re: Barrow Blade - played during site phase at a ruins & lairs

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:51 am
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:59 pm Well, the rules also say "During combat, no attack may be actively declared" Maybe it's stricter than "resolving one at a time" (mentioned above) or maybe its the same thing said a different way. Let me know if you want a picture of it. See the end of MELE.
8)
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