Neither so Ancient Nor so Potent in multi-player game

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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:54 pm Hazards are played against your opponent's companies and they are played on the opponent's play area or in the neutral zone.
Not sure what you understand by "against company". For me Doors of Night played during M/H phase of some company is against the company, like against Hazard Limit of the company. Not "on" but "against".

If Trouble on All Borders on own faction is OK, then placement of faction card in hazard player's area is not obstacle.
Unless it becomes OK because it may also affect hazard player. Then we have a concept of estimating a validity of play basing on what would be effect if some card will be eventually played. If the effect would be such a such, then a playing of the card is OK (even if generally it is not allowed), if the effect would be other then playing of the card is not OK.

Neither so Ancient Nor so Potent in first place overcomes restriction "an action may not target a card not in play".
It forces an opponent to take target item to hand. Is not restricted to opponent's item. If played on own item, the opponent will take hazard player's item to hand. In multiplayer it is not known to hand of which opponent (opponent is not tied to owner).

If it is against an intention of the creator then make errata. Replace "Playable on a stored item." with "Playable on opponent's a stored item." .
Alternative is attempt to create a justification of invalidity of playing the card on own item. Complex system of traps and exceptions that would pass Trouble on All Borders on own faction (despite of general restrictions) and would stop Neither so Ancient Nor so Potent on own item and Muster Disperses on own faction.

P.S.
Returned Beyond All Hope is not restricted to hazard player's Maia permanent-events.
Strange or not, I can live with it because I know to which player's hand the event will be returned. I know how to handle the situation when I take opponent's card to my hand; there is no limbo state.
Of course if there is a rule that prevent a taking of opponent's card to hand I would want to know about the rule.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:14 pm Unless it becomes OK because it may also affect hazard player... Then we have a concept of estimating a validity of play basing on what would be effect if some card will be eventually played.
If a card's effect says that it affects your opponent's companies, then its OK. No estimation required. Trouble on All Borders will affect your opponent's companies. Playing Neither So Ancient Nor Potent on your own resource doesn't do this.
Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:14 pm If it is against an intention of the creator then make errata. Replace "Playable on a stored item." with "Playable on opponent's a stored item."
It's not needed. Hazards are played against your opponent and they aren't played in your own play area.

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:14 pm Returned Beyond All Hope is not restricted to hazard player's Maia permanent-events.
The card is not so restrictive but the rules are.

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Sure some hazards card are designed such that they are not specifically played against the opponent's companies (it's some broader effect) and some hazards are designed such that they can be played on the hazard player's side while still being played against the opponent's companies.

But there is nothing in the rules to suggest that you can play hazards against your own resources or companies (for whatever reason) and there are at least 2 rules against doing so.

I've realized that most of the time there is some situation being discussed which is apparently not covered by the rules, the reason is it not covered by the rules is because the situation is not even allowed to occur under the rules. I've started to notice this a lot recently.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:40 pm If a card's effect says that it affects your opponent's companies, then its OK. No estimation required. Trouble on All Borders will affect your opponent's companies. Playing Neither So Ancient Nor Potent on your own resource doesn't do this.
It says "any company moving through" .
And it is the estimation I am speaking about.
Depending whether a a card may affect an opponent or not, the card may or may not overcome limitation "hazard may not be played on card in my play area".
If Trouble on All Borders would say "your companies moving through" or "opponent's companies moving through" then the allowance would be different.
And I guess that a case when target of Muster Disperses is host of Trouble on All Borders is not taken into account. The same for possibility that discarding of own faction may discard of opponent's Alliance of Free Peoples.
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:40 pm But there is nothing in the rules to suggest that you can play hazards against your own resources or companies (for whatever reason) and there are at least 2 rules against doing so.
But there is nothing in the rules to suggest...
Say the same to your opponent, next time when you will encounter some playing you did not foresee. A prohibition is not needed. It is enough that there is nothing in rules to suggest such playing.
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:40 pm The card is not so restrictive but the rules are.
I am curious. I know that Siege does not say that it may be played only on new site of company proceeding its M/H phase, but rules put such restriction.
The same for Nature's Revenge that (unlike Siege) affects all versions of target site.

Now I hear that rules forbid the hazards to target a card in hazard player's area. But a the same time, if some card has effects like effects of Trouble on All Borders, then it is allowed anyway.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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