Imaginary Problem: Playing short-events for no effect

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Konrad Klar
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CRF, Clarifications and Rulings, Legal Play of Cards wrote:A player may not play a card just to discard it (i.e., just get it out of his or her hand).
Specifically, a card may only be declared if it meets at least one of the following
criteria:
• The card must have an immediate effect on the game.
• The card is a long-event. Long-events can always be played, even if ultimately
they will not affect play.
• The card has a potential effect on play that could be triggered later (e.g., the
second use of Dragon's Desolation). Most permanent-events fall into this
category. Only those that are playable on or with a certain entity are restrictive.
For example, you cannot play a corruption card if no character exists that would
be affected by it.
There is a concept that a having immediate effect on the game or creating an effect that may be triggered/used later (no, effect of Dragon's Desolation is not triggered) is necessary as necessary is meting playability conditions stated in text of a card.
As though anyone could prove that between declaration and resolution of a given card situation will not change in such way that what appeared at declaration as a card having no immediate/could be used/triggered later effect will not have such effect at resolution.
Dark Minions: Exhalation of Decay
Rarity: Common, Precise: C2

Hazard: Short-event

Playable on an Undead hazard creature in your discard pile. If target Undead can attack, bring it into play as a creature that attacks immediately (not counting against the hazard limit). The attacks prowess is modified by -1. "...wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light the illuminated nothing."-LotRIV
Dark Minions: In Great Wrath
Rarity: Uncommon, Precise: U2

Hazard: Short-event

Playable on a Nazgûl in your discard pile that could immediately attack. The Nazgûl attacks immediately (not counting against the hazard limit) with +2 prowess and -1 body. "...the noise of hoofs broke out, and gathering to a gallop, went hammering away into the darkness."-LotRI
Bold original.

Can someone prove that conditions that allow a target Undead to attack that did not exist at declaration may not appear at resolution?
Or maybe they must exist at declaration (and at resolution) and a difference between "Playable on X in your discard pile. If X can attack [...]" and
"Playable on X in your discard pile that could immediately attack. X attacks immediately [...]" is meaningless?
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CDavis7M
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You posted the rules on LEGAL PLAY OF CARDS but did you check on the primary rules in PLAYING AND DRAWING CARDS?

A card that "appeared at declaration as a card having no immediate/could be used/triggered later effect" cannot be declared.

Practically speaking, these two example cards work (or don't work) in the same ways.
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Konrad Klar
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Practically speaking:
May Exhalation of Decay be played on Ghosts in discard pile against company moving from Rivendell to Ettenoors?
May Exhalation of Decay be played on Ghosts in discard pile against company moving from Rivendell to Bree?
May Exhalation of Decay be played on Ghosts in discard pile against company moving from Rivendell to Lórien using starter movement?
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Baba
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In the first post, I had the impression to understand as a conflict between playing the card and its resolution (first in last out)
I thought that the problem came from the fact that we cannot play exhalation because there are no required conditions in the site path but that we must play some region modifier after exhalation (morgul night) so that to exhalation resolution be valid...
But finally it's not that...

You always use starter movement ? We are speaking on heroes companies ?

I would tend to say that to play exhalation of decay, creature peril must be able to attack, and the ghost only attacks in shadow lands/hold or dark domains/hold.

So in this case, not being able to attack it cannot respond to the card text, and therefore it is not playable...

But BE CAREFUL I am only a casual player and in my playgroup we are not too fussy with the rules, we we only play for fun

(Sorry for my english)
Casual player forever !
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Konrad Klar
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Baba wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 7:52 am You always use starter movement ? We are speaking on heroes companies ?
Not necessarily.
In last case (Rivendell to Lórien), yes, implicitly.
Baba wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 7:52 am I would tend to say that to play exhalation of decay, creature peril must be able to attack, and the ghost only attacks in shadow lands/hold or dark domains/hold.

So in this case, not being able to attack it cannot respond to the card text, and therefore it is not playable...
For In Great Wrath it is checked by first bold phrase whether target Nazgûl is Nazgûl "that could immediately attack". For Exhalation of Decay check for playability/ability to attack is not done at the point.

So if a company moves from Lórien to Rivendell using starter movement In Great Wrath may be played against it (and on Nazgûl in discard pile) if there is at least one [-me_dd-] in path AND/OR The Nazgûl are Abroad is in play and company is possessing a ring and at least one [-me_sl-] is in path.
At least one of the two (separated by AND/OR) conditions must be fulfilled both at declaration and at resolution.

For Exhalation of Decay, "If target Undead can attack" check is done when Exhalation of Decay is resolved. If result of the check is positive, "bring it into play as a creature that attacks immediately ..." happens, otherwise there is no effect.

Compare the two cases with text of Beorning Skin-changers.
The Balrog: Beorning Skin-changers
Rarity: Rare, Precise: R

Hazard: Creature/Short-event

Animals. Men. Bears. Two strikes. As a creature, playable only against minion companies. May also be keyed to Anduin Vales, Western Mirkwood, Wold & Foothills, and to sites in these regions. Alternatively, playable as a short-event against a moving hero company. Unless the company contains Beorn or an untapped warrior with prowess greater than 4, it must return to its site of origin.
and ask yourself whether presence of Beorn or an untapped warrior with prowess greater than 4 in target company prevents the card from being played as Short-event.

EDIT: "In latter case, yes, implicitly." > "In last case (Rivendell to Lórien), yes, implicitly."
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Bandobras Took
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Working with "a card may not be played just to discard it", I would say that at declaration, a player must be able to demonstrate the potential of the card having an effect if the question arises. At resolution, the actual possibility of an effect/later effect must be determined, and if found to be impossible, the card must be returned to hand, as discarding it would violate the very rule being discussed.

(Precedent for returning a card to hand involves insufficient influence after playing a character during the organization phase.)
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Konrad Klar
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Am I responsible for demonstrating how Sentinels of Númenor played in end of turn phase of very last turn may affect further game?
Am I responsible for demonstrating how Alliance of Free Peoples played in game FW vs FW may affect further game?
Maybe "Discard when any hero Dwarf faction, hero Elf faction, of hero Man faction is discarded from play." and "Cannot be duplicated." are somewhat affecting further game or they are not affecting it enough to allow the cards to be played under such condition. "No other copy of the card may be played" is some effect in latter case. Or maybe I am obliged to tell my opponent how I can leverage the effects of the cards or how he/she can leverage effects of the cards.

Your problem if you do not understand my intention. If everything is legal you do not have a basis for objection. Your "I have no idea for what he is doing that" is not basis of rules.

EDIT: "I have not idea" -> "I have no idea"
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Bandobras Took
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If your opponent challenges the validity of the play, then yes, you are responsible for demonstrating such.
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Konrad Klar
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He may challenge it at any time.
I am responsible for demonstrating a potential effect on play. He is not obliged to demonstrate that he does not see such an effect, that he does not pretend that he does not see such an effect.
His lack of imagination becomes a virtue.

In meta-game it acts like Secret News or effect of Palantir of Minas Tirith in real game.

In real word: my money, not yours, not public, not stolen but I am obliged to justify my outlay as not wasteful.
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Konrad Klar
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1.
• The card has a potential effect on play that could be triggered later (e.g., the
second use of Dragon's Desolation). Most permanent-events fall into this
category. Only those that are playable on or with a certain entity are restrictive.
For example, you cannot play a corruption card if no character exists that would
be affected by it.
There is tangible reason for which a corruption card may not be played if no character exists that would
be affected by it
.
Lack of target. Obstacle is not that there is no visible further effect on game; it is not the rule is speaking about.
Playing a corruption card if there is no target for it is a playing the card illegally, regardless of intention.
Yes, of course, what would be the intention if not releasing the card and freeing slot in hand? Maybe creating an object for Knowledge of the Enemy, or exposing so played creature on the effects of The Hunt.

2.
If I am/someone is unable to prove an existence of X, it is not the proof that X does not exist.

If there are no rings in play, I am unable to prove that The Cock Crows, Ancient Secrets* on Saruman The Wise in end of turn phase of very last turn may affect further game.
I am unable to prove that there may not be such effect. Mere fact that I do not know how to bring in play a ring, or how to play non-character manifestation of Saruman in end of turn phase or at Council, or I do not know any effect that checks for number of hazards in play, is not proof that such possibilities do not exist. My lack of knowledge does not have a power of regulation of game.

*) Marvels Told, Voices of Malice at least cause roll (even not roll if used with ally).
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dirhaval
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Can Call of Home be played if opponent has 20 unused General Influence?
What about playing Lost in Border-lands if moving through a single border-land?
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Konrad Klar
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I think "yes".
Beside reasons explained above:
CRF, Rulings by Term, Playing a Card wrote:Playing a card is the process of bringing a card from your hand into play.
You may not play a card which has no effect on the game. Causing a dice roll is
considered to be having an effect on the game.
There is a chance that something declared in response to Lost in Border-lands will change a company's site path in such way that it will contain [-me_bl-].
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