Active conditions of effect of Black Arrow

[Konrad Klar]

The passive condition of Black Arrow being tapped then comes into effect and Black Arrow must be immediately discarded at the next opportunity, prior to the opponent having a chance to take their own action in response.

What is "the next opportunity"?
If Slip Treacherously is resolved, executes, Black Arrow or Ancient Black Axe become tapped, when exactly it is discarded, or cc is performed?

I am sorry for being uncivil but I do not like a blur logic as alternative for acknowledging of error and making errata.

EDIT: "when exactly they are discarded" -> "when exactly it is discarded, or cc is performed?" ?

[DamienX207]

That ... is an entirely different question. (and this is why I generally have been trying to focus my time on the full rules remaster project rather than addressing random Qs at this time - and I'm always happy to have volunteers to help with that btw! - but I was looking something up and stumbled across this thread so figured I'd chime in to hopefully help Zakath with passives, so hey, y'all got here me now)

My understanding is that when an action or effect must be implemented "immediately", it is done so .. right then. I mean, "immediately" is a fairly defined word in English, and probably the best word to describe the timing, but I believe that (while this isn't always the case with the designers' use of English language) the use of "immediately" in MeCCG is the same as the common English understanding of the word. When a card leaves play, its effects are negated "immediately" - not later, not after the chain finishes resolving, not after players have had a chance to respond, but "immediately" - to give just 1 example of 100s, literally. I believe this is consistent across ICE's use of the word "immediately" if you look at how the word is used (and thus this would be the clearest counter-evidence to how Zakath was approaching Anno 9a)... So to be frank, I'm not sure if you're trolling me, Konrad, or if this is an actual question!

If Slip Treacherously is played on Black Arrow, it doesn't tap the Arrow until the card itself resolves in the current chain of effects. When that happens during the chain of effects resolving, and the condition of "Black Arrow is tapped" comes into effect, the Black Arrow is "immediately" discarded at that time, before other actions may be taken, would be my understanding.
However, Ancient Black Axe is entirely different, because it doesn't involve discarding; it's a normal passive condition, not a 'discarding passive condition' per 9a. So as a normal passive condition, when Ancient Black Axe becomes tapped when Slip Treacherously resolves in its chain of effects, the condition of "Ancient Black Axe is tapped" comes into effect, and per Anno 9, the CC is added to the beginning of the subsequent chain of effects that immediately follows the Slip Treacherously chain of effects.

And by all means, you can not like blurred logic; just all of us being explicit about what the rules are versus our interpretations of those rules, and thus not further blurring the lines ourselves, would be my preference.

[Konrad Klar]

Thanks. Actual question was about "next opportunity".

When character is discarded in result of cc caused by Weariness of the Heart, Fellowship on his former company is discarded exactly at the moment when the cc fails. Right?
When character is discarded in result of cc caused by using of The One Ring (the cc is condition of canceling of strike, it happens at declaration) Fellowship on his former company is discarded exactly at the moment when the cc fails. Right?

Is it different for Black Arrow? If it is tapped as fulfilling of active condition of using Black Arrow, or in result of Slip Treacherously, is there some "next opportunity" for second case and not for first case?

If there is no difference AND if bearer is not a Man, then the effect of Black Arrow is self-canceling.

[DamienX207]

Oh, I see. Apologies for my own parlance confusing you; I meant, "as the next thing that happens", if that makes more sense? My understanding is that generally it's not considered "simultaneous" as much as "immediately next", though I think in practice that distinction doesn't really matter. Yes to your Qs about CCs; and in fact, with corruption checks failing, those passives actually ARE considered simultaneous I believe (and in fact, this would further suggest normally it's not considered "simultaneous", since that's specified for CCs); but generally I don't think of it as "simultaneous" as much as "the immediate next thing."

And no, it wouldn't be different for Black Arrow; since it is discarded "immediately" (per Anno 9a etc), it is discarded as soon as the player finishes declaring that they are tapping it for the effect on a non-Man creature, or as soon as Slip Treacherously resolves while it's on a non-Man creature. As soon as Black Arrow is tapped, it's discarded before other things can happen.

My point about Black Arrow is that I don't think "self-canceling" would be the correct way of describing it, or that it's some "bug" in how it's written. Even if Black Arrow wasn't discarded immediately and was instead discarded the way Zakath was describing, after its prowess/body effect resolves, discarding the item would then remove any effects of the item, including any currently-active prowess/body modification. So either way, it seems to me that Black Arrow was specifically designed to only be useful on Man characters; non-Man characters can bear it, but can't use it at all (or they can, but it's discarded and its effect goes away). I don't personally see this as a bug of the templating or the timing rules but rather how the card was written to function (as of the time that I am writing this).

[Konrad Klar]

My understanding is that generally it's not considered "simultaneous" as much as "immediately next", though I think in practice that distinction doesn't really matter.

I think that it's not considered "simultaneous" too. I think that in practice that distinction matters, sometimes. If a discarding of some minion would cause a discarding of other minion and the two actions would happen simultaneously then there would be problem with effect of Pallando the Soul-keeper.

So either way, it seems to me that Black Arrow was specifically designed to only be useful on Man characters; non-Man characters can bear it, but can't use it at all (or they can, but it's discarded and its effect goes away). I don't personally see this as a bug of the templating or the timing rules but rather how the card was written to function (as of the time that I am writing this).

Very complicated way of constructing a card with effect "Man bearer only". But there are some practical differences. Currently non-man bearer may legally cause discarding of Black Arrow (e.g. in order to reduce of his CPs). And if hypothetical effect would prevent a discarding of Black Arrow, then even Black Arrow possessed by non-man bearer would be tapped for effect with success.

Thanks for participating in splitting a hair.

[DamienX207]

Agreed that there are random little places where "simultaneous" versus "immediately after" is worth distinguishing, but yes, my point was merely in practice / generally there aren't a lot of places where that matters (but probably sometimes!). But yes, I think it's appropriate to refer to the timing as the "next immediate thing", not "the same time".
Also it's not that a non-Man can't bear it; just that they can't use it. So a non-Man could e.g. pick up a Black Arrow as an additional minor item during Site Phase and then transfer it to a Man during Org Phase who could then use it.
Final thing I'll mention for now: generally any item can be borne by any character (with some isolated exceptions maybe? but generally that's how the game works); it's just that the character can't always *use* the item, e.g. Minion characters not being able to use Hero items, but they can still carry them, etc. So yes, the designers COULD have templated Black Arrow differently to be clearer (famous words in this game!) but I think probably the designers just maintained their normal philosophical approach with Black Arrow that they did with items generally; anyone can carry it around because generally anyone can carry any item, but the arrow breaks when a non-Man tries to use it. ETA: Actually, Konrad, maybe you meant they could have put that on the tapping action, which is fair; but I do think the idea is anyone can *try* to use a Black Arrow, it just breaks if they're not a Man!

[Konrad Klar]

Also it's not that a non-Man can't bear it; just that they can't use it. So a non-Man could e.g. pick up a Black Arrow as an additional minor item during Site Phase and then transfer it to a Man during Org Phase who could then use it.

I said about a card with effect "Man bearer only". Sword of Gondolin, Aiglos, Valiant Sword have effects "Warrior only". They may be born by any character but only warrior bearer may use the effects.
Maybe I should say about a card with effect "Man only" to avoid confusion but examples of what (in my opinion) currently non-man bearer may do with Black Arrow indicate that I do not say about the card that may be born only by Man.

ETA: Actually, Konrad, maybe you meant they could have put that on the tapping action, which is fair; but I do think the idea is anyone can *try* to use a Black Arrow, it just breaks if they're not a Man!

It is possible to play Twilight on Gates of Morning, then next Twilight on previous Twilight (both by the same player). Net effect will be wasteful, but still legal.