Some thoughts about Hazard Limit

[Konrad Klar]

https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 178&t=5021
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 179&t=4997

In other words, any effects of a card in play that are modifying a company’s hazard limit would immediately end if the card itself leaves play, reverting the hazard limit to what it normally would have been without the effect (also confirmed in ICE 114, etc.). This type of card would include:

Bairanax at Home
Crept Along Carefully
Drums
Earcaraxe at Home
Eyes of the Shadow
Gandalf the White Rider
Going Ever Under Dark
The Great Eye
Power Built by Waiting
Radagast the Tamer
Shadow of Mordor

A company moves from Goblin-Gate to Rhosgobel. Radagast the Tamer is in play. Initial HL of the company is 4, due to effect of Radagast the Tamer it is increased to 5. Marvels Told on Radagast the Tamer (and on some sage) is declared. Lost in Dark-domains is declared in response. Lost in Dark-domains resolves and doubles the HL to 10. Then Marvels Told resolves, Radagast the Tamer is dicarded...
And what?
Is HL decreased to 9, or to 8?

If to treat the HL increasing effect of Radagast the Tamer as action caused by passive condition, then the action is declared as first action in M/H phase and if it resolves the HL is 5. Like in case of other actions caused by passive condition, applied result remains in game whether later the passive condition is still in play or whether a card that states the the action happens if the condition is fulfilled is stil in play.

If Marvels Told on Radagast the Tamer and Lost in Dark-domains would be played in response to effect of Radagast the Tamer, then final HL would be 8.
If Marvels Told on Radagast the Tamer and Lost in Dark-domains would be played after resolving effect of Radagast the Tamer, then final HL would be 10.

Similarly if the company would be redirected by Chance of Being Lost to Framsburg and in result it would not move by regions affected by Radagast the Tamer, the applied result of Radagast the Tamer would not disappear.

[SuperNovice]

I would think the hazard limit would be 9 after the chain you described.

This is the rules clarification on Hazard limits from the METD rulebook:

The base hazard limit is determined (i.e. set) simultaneously at the moment a company reveals its new site or otherwise announces it is beginning its movement/hazard phase. Any cards which modify a company’s hazard limit played prior to this point are then immediately applied to the company’s base hazard limit in the order chose by the player controlling the company. With such modifications established, any cards played after this point are interpreted in the order they are resolved. Any effects which modify the hazard limit against a company during its site phase are ignored. Any reduction in the hazard limit during a movement/hazard phase does not affect cards already announced and played.

There are some additional entries in the CRF that reference this but I didn't see anything that changes it.

Based on that clarification, I believe the sequence you described resolves as:
1. Company declares their movement phase and reveals their site
2. Hazard limit is determined
3. Radagast the Tamer effect triggers then resolves, increasing the hazard limit to 5.
4. Lost in Dark-Domains is played then resolved, increasing the hazard limit to 10
5. Marvels Told is played then resolved targeting Radagast the Tamer, decreasing the hazard limit to 9.

In step 5, Lost in Dark-Domains has already been played and resolved. As a short-event, it is no longer in play and, per the rule above, "any reduction in the hazard limit during a movement/hazard phase does not affect cards already announced and played". Hence, the doubling from Lost in Dark-Domains was already played and applied - we don't go back and recalculate the entire turn. We just apply the new reduction to the current hazard limit. i.e. Reduce the hazard limit by 1 from 10 to 9.

[Konrad Klar]

I think that what is said about a base hazard limit is not said about hazard limit in general.

And I do not think that Radagast the Tamer itself is applied to company's hazard limit.
What is applied is the result of action "have their hazard limit increased by one". Passive condition that triggers the action is "all companies moving in Southern Mirkwood, Western Mirkwood, Woodland Realm, and/or Heart of Mirkwood".
Similarly not Bairanax Ahunt itself is targeting a company but the action "faces one Dragon attack [...]" that is triggered by the condition "Any company moving in Withered Heath, Gundabad, Anduin Vales, and/or Grey Mountain Narrows ".

(If the attack from Bairanax Ahunt is not defeated) the Bairanax Ahunt may be later discarded but results of combat (cards played/discarded, characters/allies wounded/tapped/discarded/eliminated) are not reverted.

The difference whether Bairanax Ahunt was already in play before some company's M/H phase or it has been played during the M/H phase is only the moment in that the action is triggered. Mechanics is basically the same.
Similarly I do not see a reason for which Radagast the Tamer and its effect/result of action caused by it would be treated differently depending on whether Radagast the Tamer was in play before some company's M/H phase or it has been played during the phase.

Continuous effects (lasting as long as a card that creates it and/or condition described on the card are in play) are not the results of triggered actions.
Effect of Star of High Hope is not triggered, is stronger if Gates of Morning is in play, weaker otherwise and is gone if Star of High Hope leaves play.
Results of returning action from Snowstorm, attack from Ahunt, tapping from Long Winter do not disappear when the cards leave a play or when conditions that triggered the actions are no longer in play.

Hybrids of continuous effects and results of triggered actions do not work. I do not know and I cannot imagine the rules which could consistently describe how they would work.

I would think the hazard limit would be 9 after the chain you described.

And then it would not be "reverting the hazard limit to what it normally would have been without the effect".
Because hybrids of continuous effects and results of triggered actions do not work.

[SuperNovice]

I'm not following your logic.

There is no distinction in the rules between hazard limit and base hazard limit. There is only the hazard limit. That is modified directly by cards like Bairanax Ahunt and Radagast the Tamer. It is then further modified by Lost in Dark-Domains.

Likewise, these cards are not treated differently depending on whether they are in play before movement or not. They simply trigger and resolve at different timings:
- If the cards are already in play, they are triggered at the start of the movement phase then resolved as defined by the passive effects timing rules.
- If they are played during the movement phase, they are played and resolved then their effects are triggered and they are applied using the passive timing rules.
I'm not clear on how these are different?

Lastly, I don't believe there is a concept of a "continuous effect" in Middle Earth - the rules only speak of passive conditions that trigger actions. For example, Rank upon Rank simply states that all non-agent Men receive +1 prowess and +1 strike. This is a passive condition that can be responded to per ICE #78 (https://meccg.com/rules/ruling-digests/#56). The timing on Star of Hope is mostly irrelevant as it is applied before any strikes can be assigned or resolved but, technically speaking, it is a passive condition with a triggered effect. If this is something I missed and there is a concept of continuous effects, please send me a link to it as I couldn't find it.

As I read them, the rules are pretty clear that effects are triggered then resolved. Once resolved, you don't go back and try to resolve the turn as though it didn't happen if it is later removed from play. If the team making new rulings came up with something different, they appear to be in direct contradiction to the rules as they are written. In fact, as I'm writing this, I'm more of the opinion that the hazard limit is still 10 after you remove Radagast. His passive condition was already triggered and resolved - it's too late to go back and change it now.

[Konrad Klar]

A company moves to hero Bree, Nature's Revenge is on the Bree. Bree is with Animals AA.
Hazard player plays Tidings of Bold Spies, resource player responds with Marvels Told on Nature's Revenge, hazard player responds with Fell Winter.
Fell Winter Resolves, then Marvels Told resolves - Bree becomes , loses Animals AA but receives Wolves AA, Tidings of Bold Spies resolves because target company moves to a site with AA, even if the AA is different than AA that was at declaration.

Above is valid if the effect of Fell Winter is a continuous effect.
If it will be result of an action triggered by presence of then the action will be declared at beginning of next chain of effects.
And if to treat it consistently, then received Wolves AA would remain in play even if later Fell Winter will be discarded, as company returned by action from Snowstorm does not return to moving state if later Snowstorm will be discarded, and it would remain in play even if site will change its type to something other than , like in case of company returned by action from Snowstorm, that when returned no longer moves with path with at least one .

Lastly, I don't believe there is a concept of a "continuous effect" in Middle Earth - the rules only speak of passive conditions that trigger actions.

So WTF means "If a card leaves active play, including being returned to a player’s hand, it immediately ceases having an effect on play."
Is effect of Star of High Hope triggered by something? By presence of character of race of given type?

The timing on Star of Hope is mostly irrelevant as it is applied before any strikes can be assigned or resolved but, technically speaking,

And outside of this situation is not applied? If company contains only one untapped warrior and it is Elf with prowess of 4 (without effect of Star of High Hope) and Beorning Skin-changers as short-event resolves in this state then the company is returned?

[SuperNovice]

Where is this line in the rules?

"If a card leaves active play, including being returned to a player’s hand, it immediately ceases having an effect on play."

I'd need to see the context to understand what is being referred to.

In any case, the rules don't have a concept of continuous effect as far as I'm aware - I linked the sections where ICE gives clarifications that call out the exact opposite intention. If you can provide a link where continuous effects exist in the rules, please do and I'll revise my opinion. As it stands, all of the rulings point to passive conditions and triggers. There's even a comment in ICE #78 that I referred to earlier where they specifically state that they use passive conditions to avoid creating an entirely new concept to deal with the interactions with cards like Rank Upon Rank and Ready to His Will.

For your example with Fell Winter, it works within the timing and combat rules but I'm not sure it works the way you think it does. Tidings of Bold Spies creates an attack and is resolved using the process described here: https://meccg.com/rules/tutorials/combat/

Playing Tidings of Bold Spies satisfies Step 1: Play of a card that generates 1 or more attacks
Step 1a: Play of Resources/Hazards:
Marvels Told is played.
First Chain of effect is created with Marvels Told as the first action and Fell Winter played in response as the second
First Chain of effect resolves as follows. Fell Winter comes into play and all Border Holds gain an auto-attack. Marvels Told removes Nature's Wrath. Site reverts to a Border Hold
Fell Winter's passive condition is triggered as the site is a Border-Hold
Second Chain of effect is created with Fell Winter as the first action
No responses are played during the second chain of effects
Fell Winter resolves and the site gains an auto-attack
Step 1b: Enter attack sequence
This ends Step 1 and moves to step 2. It now too late to play any cards that add or remove additional attacks.

Now we move to Step 2: Attack Sequence Starts
At this point, all auto-attacks from Tidings of Bold Spies (whatever is on the site plus the additional auto-attack from Fell Winter) begin being resolved - one attack at a time. Actions can be taken to modify the current attack being resolved per process

Combat continues as per described.

In your example, playing Marvels Told only works to modify the attacks being faced if done in Step 1. If the resource player waited until Step 2 or later, it would have no effect on the current series of attacks generated from Tidings, even if the animal attacks had not yet been faced.

[Konrad Klar]

"If a card leaves active play, including being returned to a player’s hand, it immediately ceases having an effect on play."
I'd need to see the context to understand what is being referred to.

In any case, the rules don't have a concept of continuous effect as far as I'm aware - I linked the sections where ICE gives clarifications that call out the exact opposite intention.

If context would add any meaning ...

A discarded non-Wizard/non-Ringwraith character may be brought into play again by
any player.
When a card is discarded, so are all permanent-events on that card.
Cards discarded from a player's hand must be discarded one at a time. This is mainly
to allow a Pallando player to see each card as it is discarded. Whenever a character is
discarded, all non-follower cards played with that character are also discarded.
If a card leaves active play, including being returned to a player's hand, it immediately
ceases having an effect on play. [effective 11/3/97]
Cards in the discard pile do not remember how they were played.

If you think that there is no concept of continuous effect, try to apply the passive conditions stuff to modifiers from Fellowship. For instance.

Playing Tidings of Bold Spies satisfies Step 1: Play of a card that generates 1 or more attacks
Step 1a: Play of Resources/Hazards:
Marvels Told is played.
First Chain of effect is created with Marvels Told as the first action and Fell Winter played in response as the second
[...]

To be declared and to resolve Tidings of Bold Spies requires a company moving to a site with AA.
Hero Bree normally does not have AA.
So I cannot see how the Bree would have AA if Nature's Revenge is now discarded and AA from Fell Winter is not gained at the moment when Fell Winter is in play and Bree is . At least not in the same chain of effects started with Tidings of Bold Spies.

In your example Marvels Told is not played in response to Tidings of Bold Spies. Are you suggesting that Marvels Told may not be played in response to
Tidings of Bold Spies?

[SuperNovice]

I think we're going in circles now. I've asked multiples time for a reference in the rules or rules clarifications that talks about a continuous effect and none seems to be forthcoming. Barring such a reference, I don't know how we can proceed as "continuous effects" and their effects are not defined. Passive conditions are defined, however, and there are well-defined processes for resolving chain of effects and attacks. IMO, we need to be looking at resolving questions within the existing framework and not inferring additional rules.

All of the questions you asked so far can be resolved via the passive conditions rules. That does mean some things are counterintuitive and/or confusing but those are the rules - this was brought up and discussed when the original ruling was passed down. The response in the Ruling Digests was that they did this intentionally to avoid creating an entirely new set of rules for the exact type of ongoing effects you're referring to. Regardless of whether or not I agree with that logic, those are the rules that have been defined. If you disagree with the original ruling and think that an entirely new type of effect needs to be added, that is a conversation that is significantly greater in scope than this question about hazard limits. It should really be its own separate thread as I think a lot of discussion would be needed to prove that such an addition would improve the game.

[Konrad Klar]

I've asked multiples time for a reference in the rules or rules clarifications that talks about a continuous effect and none seems to be forthcoming.

Does not exist.
Is short term for effect that last as long as a card that creates it and/or conditions described on the card is/are in play. And is not triggered by anything.

Characters have +2 prowess when Clear Skies is in play, do not have the bonus when Clear Skies leaves play. Nothing triggers the bonus.

If you would feel more comfortable, the instead "continuous effect" I could each time write "effect that last as long as a card and/or conditions described on the card is/are in play and is not triggered by anything".

That does mean some things are counterintuitive and/or confusing but those are the rules - this was brought up and discussed when the original ruling was passed down.

No. Counter intuitive is mixing the "effect that last as long as a card that creates it and/or conditions described on the card is/are in play and is not triggered by anything" with result of action caused by passive conditions.

It makes things complicated for sake of being complicated.
Then ruling issuing body may issue ruling that describes how to deal with some complicated situation that would not be complicated at all if not mixing the "effect that last as long as a card that creates it and/or conditions described on the card is/are in play and is not triggered by anything" with result of action caused by passive conditions that is done in the ruling.

In your example Marvels Told is not played in response to Tidings of Bold Spies. Are you suggesting that Marvels Told may not be played in response to
Tidings of Bold Spies?

You did not answer the question.

[Konrad Klar]

Does not exist.

Anyway, some trace of opposite.

Discard immediately if its company contains less than four characters while moving.
Only copies tapping effects of other Palantíri, not continuous effects.

[SuperNovice]

To bring this back to the original question, I do believe the hazard limit would be 9 based on my earlier logic. I thought it might be 10 but, thinking further, I do believe the correct hazard limit would be 9.

As for the conversation about "continuous effects", there's not really anything to discuss at this point. I don't believe such a thing exists within the rules and have provided both my reasoning and cited examples from within the collected rulings to support my position. You disagree and have stated why. As near as I can tell, we are at an impasse and there is not a path forward. At this point, it's just agree to disagree.

[Konrad Klar]

1.

So thanks for paying attention.

I do not want to convince anyone that the effect of Clear Skies works from the moment when Clear Skies is in play, is stopped when Clear Skies leaves play. And that there is no trigger that activates it.
Or that minion Palantír of Elostirion as long born by sage increases hand size of its player by 1, without any trigger.
Or that Nature's Revenge makes its target site and creates new AA when the card is in play, the effects disappear the card is no longer in play and are not triggered.
I only get someone's attention on it.

And I may get someone's attention that results of actions caused (triggered) by passive condition are not reversible.
Character wounded while facing attack from Dragon Ahunt does not become not wounded when later the Dragon Ahunt leaves play or when company of the character is no longer moving through affected regions
Site tapped by action from Long Winter does not untap when later Long Winter leaves play, or when Doors of Night leaves play, or when the site does not have at least two in its site path anymore.

2.

Impact on HL of cards

Bairanax at Home
Crept Along Carefully
Drums
Earcaraxe at Home
Eyes of the Shadow
Gandalf the White Rider
Going Ever Under Dark
The Great Eye
Power Built by Waiting
Radagast the Tamer
Shadow of Mordor

whether to treat it as belonging to first category or as belonging to second category interacts with short-events affecting HL.
Unless there is some minimum or maximum an order of additions and subtractions does not matter. Lost in Dark-domains does multiplication.
And its result may be further modified. There is no simple reverting the HL to a state from before.

3.

Thing I speak about before.
Treating some effect from one hand as result of triggered action and from other hand as effect that lasts as long as a card and/or conditions that created it is/are in play.

Especially Bairanax at Home looks interresting.

The Dragons: Bairanax at Home
Rarity: Rare, Precise: R3

Hazard: Permanent-event

Unique. Unless Bairanax Ahunt is in play, Ovir Hollow has an additional automatic-attack: Dragon-2 strikes at 15/7. In addition, the hazard limit against any company facing one or more animal hazard creature attacks is increased by one. "'Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath...'" -Hob

At which moment a company is facing one or more animal hazard creature attacks. At which moment the company is facing more animal hazard creature attacks? When the company is facing animal hazard creature with multiple attacks?

What after?
The company is not facing animal hazard creature attacks.

But it is so visible, that Bairanax at Home and its impact on HL has been treated differently by CoE Digest #204 Q5 than Radagast the Tamer and its impact on HL.
If some company no longer moves trough regions affected by Radagast the Tamer the impact of Radagast the Tamer on HL disappears, but when the company no loner is facing one or more animal hazard creature attacks the impact on HL of Bairanax at Home does not disappear.

In both cases if Radagast the Tamer and/or Bairanax at Home leave play their impact on HL is gone.

Special cases - special ruling.

Alternative for treating the results of (triggered) action caused by passive condition as not revertible and the continuous effects* as lasting as long the card and/or conditions described by the card is/are in play. Consistently.

*) for SuperNovice: effects that last as long as a card that creates it and/or conditions described on the card is/are in play. And are not triggered by anything.

EDIT: "is not triggered" > "are not triggered"