Prophet of Doom

[Konrad Klar]

The White Hand: Prophet of Doom
Rarity: Rare, Precise: R2

Resource: Permanent-event

Pallando specific. Playable if you are Pallando and have at least 12 and 5 factions in play. Pallando need not be at the appropriate site when making an influence attempt on an opponent's resource or character. Such an influence check is modified by half (rounded up) of Pallando's unused (to a maximum of 10) instead of his unused . Subtract from the attempt the number of regions between Pallando's site and the site where the influence attempt would normally be made. Discard if you have fewer than 5 factions in play. Cannot be duplicated.

1.
What if Pallando is at under-deeps site while making an influence attempt on an opponent's resource or character, or when target resource or character is at under-deeps site?
Is the modification from "the number of regions between Pallando's site and the site where the influence attempt would normally be made" nullified?

2.

For a Fallen-wizard, the resource revealed must match the alignment of the site at
which the attempt is taking place.

Which site is considered the site at which the attempt is taking place? Site occupied by Pallando's company, site where the influence attempt would normally be made?

3.

The Lidless Eye: Webs of Fear & Treachery
Rarity: Rare, Precise: R

Hazard: Long-event

Except for unused and unused normal (including influence modifications given in a character's card text), all modifications to each influence attempt are reduced to zero. "'For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need...'"-LotRI

Seems like Webs of Fear & Treachery is helper for such influence attempts. Unless negative modifications may not be reduced to zero.

[Mordakai]

1. Maybe you can't do it from Under-deeps because that calculation is impossible? I fail to find any other similar situation.

2. I'd go for present Pallando's site, using Old Road and Hour of Need as guidance (they both tap the site where the attempt is actually made).

3. Why not? Because negatives cannot be "reduced" to zero?

[Konrad Klar]

1. Maybe you can't do it from Under-deeps because that calculation is impossible? I fail to find any other similar situation.

[...] Add any other modifications (from cards and special abilities). All modification cards must be played before either player makes a roll. [...]

If there are no "any other modifications (from cards and special abilities)" is the calculation impossible?

2. I'd go for present Pallando's site, using Old Road and Hour of Need as guidance (they both tap the site where the attempt is actually made).

Oh. So Pallando at FW version of site may reveal duplicate only when influencing stage resources (or characters).

3. Why not? Because negatives cannot be "reduced" to zero?

Quotation marks suggest such possibility...

[Konrad Klar]

2. I'd go for present Pallando's site, using Old Road and Hour of Need as guidance (they both tap the site where the attempt is actually made).

And there is (quite recent) case of Roäc the Raven.

[SuperNovice]

Question 1
I don't believe you can influence using Prophet of Doom from the Underdeeps. Underdeeps sites do not have regions so there is no way to count the number of regions between the starting site (which has no region) and the site where the card could be played. A similar question came up for Hour of Need and was answered in ICE Rules Digest #103

In other words, to play Hour of Need you must still be at an untapped site and succesfully playing the faction taps the site *you are at* (not the one the faction would “normally” be playable, unless you happen to be there.

Correct.

Issue 2: Is this card playable from the Under-deeps at all? I would guess not since it says “including the regions containing both sites” and Under-deeps are not in a region.

It cannot be played in the Under-deeps.

Question 2

Oh. So Pallando at FW version of site may reveal duplicate only when influencing stage resources (or characters).

Fallen Wizard sites count as both hero and minion for the purpose of playing cards. Pallando at Fallen Wizard Isengard can influence minion or hero targets.

Reference, MEWH rules:

Playing Resources at a Site

In order to play a non-Fallen-wizard resource that would normally tap a site, either the site and the resource to be played must both be hero cards or they must both be minion cards. For these purposes, a Fallen-wizard site card (or any Wizardhaven) is both a hero and minion site. This applies to all factions, allies, and items; as well as other cards played during the site phase that tap the site.

Question 3
This is indeed a helper. Per CoE Rulings Digest #103, the modification for number of regions is changed to 0.

I am wondering about the effect of Webs of Fear & Treachery upon Old Road, Hour of Need, and Prophet of Doom. In the case of Hour of Need, you would subtract nothing? In the case of Old Road, would it allow direct influence to be used? In the case of Prophet of Doom, would Webs of Fear & Treachery allow Pallando to use both his unused general influence AND his unused direct influence? If not, how does it affect Prophet of Doom?

Hour of Need: Yes, you would subract nothing.

Old Road: You do not get to use your direct influence, because that is not changing a modifier to zero.

Prophet of Doom: Pallando may use half of his unused general influence as stated on the card, and the region modifier is reduced to zero. As with Old Road, Pallando does not get to use his direct influence.

[Konrad Klar]

Question 1
I don't believe you can influence using Prophet of Doom from the Underdeeps. Underdeeps sites do not have regions so there is no way to count the number of regions between the starting site (which has no region) and the site where the card could be played. A similar question came up for Hour of Need and was answered in ICE Rules Digest #103

Answer has been given without justification.

The Wizards: Siege
Rarity: Rare, Precise: R

Hazard: Permanent-event

Playable on a or a site. A company at this site must face an Orc attack of three strikes at 7 prowess at the beginning of its site phase. At the end of its organization phase, a company at a site must make a roll (or draw a #) and subtract one from the result for every non-scout character it contains. If this result is less than 5, the company may not move this turn. Discard when the site card is discarded or when the site card is returned to the location deck. Cannot be duplicated on a given site.

Underline mine.

What if there is nothing to subtract?

What makes a check impossible is absence of value to which the result of roll is compared, not a lack of modifier.

Fallen Wizard sites count as both hero and minion for the purpose of playing cards. Pallando at Fallen Wizard Isengard can influence minion or hero targets.

Minion Ettenmoors with Hidden Haven is Wizardhaven but the site has minion alignment. Both Stone Trolls and Wizard's Ring may be played at the site, but Hall of Fire may not be played on the site.

EDIT: "no lack of modifier" -> "not a lack of modifier"

[SuperNovice]

What if there is nothing to subtract?

What makes a check impossible is absence of value to which the result of roll is compared, not a lack of modifier.

In the rules digest, the explicit question was, "can this card be played given that an Underdeeps site has no region?" The answer confirmed that it could not. The justification can be reasonably inferred from the question and the lack of additional reasoning in the answer. The same logic can be reasonably applied to Prophet of Doom as Prophet of Doom requires you to go through the same process. Start at Fallen Pallando's current site, identify his starting region, then count the number of regions from his site to the target site. You cannot complete that process in the Underdeeps as there is no starting region to count from. The number is not zero, it's undefined. You cannot determine what the modifier is and, hence, cannot complete the instructions on the card. Therefore, it cannot be played.

One additional point to add. The lack of a region on Underdeeps cards and the inability to use region movement in the Underdeeps highlights the intention of the card. Cards that require regions cannot be played on Underdeep sites - this is true everywhere in the game. Why would Prophet of Doom be the only exception when the card itself does not say that it is?

Fallen Wizard sites count as both hero and minion for the purpose of playing cards. Pallando at Fallen Wizard Isengard can influence minion or hero targets.

Minion Ettenmoors with Hidden Haven is Wizardhaven but the site has minion alignment. Both Stone Trolls and Wizard's Ring may be played at the site, but Hall of Fire may not be played on the site.

EDIT: "no lack of modifier" -> "not a lack of modifier"

I'm not sure what point you're making. That is a correct statement and doesn't contradict the rules I previously quoted. To wit, the rules apply to one of the four sites that are explicitly Fallen Wizard sites (of which Isengard is one) or a Wizardhaven. (Reference is in the rules text I quoted above). Since Ettenmoors with a Hidden Haven is a Wizardhaven, the rules apply and it counts as both a minion and hero site for the purposes of playing allies, factions, items, and cards playable in the site phase that tap the site. It would allow Pallando to influence both hero and minion cards from the (now) Wizardhaven site. Note that the rules do not say all cards; they specifically say this rule refers to allies, factions, items, and all other cards playable during the site phase that would tap the site. Halls of Fire is not one of those cards so could not be played unless Double Dealing is also played on the site.

[sarma72]

I agree with Mordakai here. Underdeep sites are not located in any region so counting is not possible. The text of Hour of Need explicitly anticipates this question by stating that you cannot use it if your influencing character is at an underdeep site. Regrettably this is not written in Prophet of Doom but there is no doubt in my mind that the intention of this card was to add more remote-influencing capabilities to Fallen-Pallando (consistent with his specific FW theme), similar to Hour of Need or Old Road.

[Konrad Klar]

In the rules digest, the explicit question was, "can this card be played given that an Underdeeps site has no region?" The answer confirmed that it could not. The justification can be reasonably inferred from the question and the lack of additional reasoning in the answer. The same logic can be reasonably applied to Prophet of Doom as Prophet of Doom requires you to go through the same process. Start at Fallen Pallando's current site, identify his starting region, then count the number of regions from his site to the target site. You cannot complete that process in the Underdeeps as there is no starting region to count from. The number is not zero, it's undefined. You cannot determine what the modifier is and, hence, cannot complete the instructions on the card. Therefore, it cannot be played.

CRF says: "Can be revealed on-guard."
for Doubled Vigilance.
(without mentioning when; presumably when company enters a site)
It is arbitrary statement, because nothing in text of the card indicates that it may fulfill standard conditions of revealing on-guard or that it has special.


For Hour of Need: if there would be stipulation that faction must be playable in region distant (up to) n regions from region where diplomat's site is located, then yes. Such condition could not be fulfilled if diplomat's company's would be at under-deeps site.

"You cannot determine what the modifier is and, hence, cannot complete the instructions on the card."
I can. Does not exist.

Make errata, do not stretch a logic. Original texts of Gwaihir, Eagle-mounts do not prevent them from allowing for special movement to/from under-deeps.

I'm not sure what point you're making. That is a correct statement and doesn't contradict the rules I previously quoted.

Can FW player reveal Glamdring while making influence attempt at minion Ettenmoors?
Minion Ettenmoors site card with Hidden Haven is Wizardhaven site but stil it is minion site. Hall of Fire cannot be played on it because hero events may not target minion site.
Alignments of Ettenmoors and Glamdring mathes? Alignments of Ettenmoors and Hall of Fire matches?
Does FW alignment of Isengard (FW verison) matches only the alignment of resources of FW alignment? Or does FW alignment of Isengard (FW verison) matches the alignment of all resources?

[SuperNovice]

"You cannot determine what the modifier is and, hence, cannot complete the instructions on the card."
I can. Does not exist.

Make errata, do not stretch a logic. Original texts of Gwaihir, Eagle-mounts do not prevent them from allowing for special movement to/from under-deeps.

There's no need for errata here in my opinion. A ruling already exists and is quite clear. That exists in addition to the overall precedent of how the rules deal with Underdeeps sites and regions.

At this point, we have once again reached the point where I bow out as I see no further discussion to be had. I've made my case (with references to actual rules and rulings) on why it should not be. You disagree but have not yet made an argument on why it should be allowed; you've only argued for how it would work if it was allowed to be played. We're not discussing the same topic.

Can FW player reveal Glamdring while making influence attempt at minion Ettenmoors?
Minion Ettenmoors site card with Hidden Haven is Wizardhaven site but stil it is minion site. Hall of Fire cannot be played on it because hero events may not target minion site.
Alignments of Ettenmoors and Glamdring mathes? Alignments of Ettenmoors and Hall of Fire matches?
Does FW alignment of Isengard (FW verison) matches only the alignment of resources of FW alignment? Or does FW alignment of Isengard (FW verison) matches the alignment of all resources?

To be clear, the rule is not that they "match". The rule is "Fallen Wizard sites and Wizardhavens count as minion and hero sites for the purpose of playing items, allies, factions, and other cards playable in the site phase that tap the site."

• You can absolutely play Glamdring on a minion Ettenmoors with a Hidden Haven using Prophet of Doom.

• You cannot play Hall of Fire because it does not meet the requirements of the rules above. i.e. It is not a faction, ally, item, or card playable in the site phase that taps the site.

• The Fallen Wizard Isengard count as hero, minion, and stage alignment for the purposes I quoted above. It does not apply to ALL resources - it only applies to those referenced in the rule.

[SuperNovice]

I agree with Mordakai here. Underdeep sites are not located in any region so counting is not possible. The text of Hour of Need explicitly anticipates this question by stating that you cannot use it if your influencing character is at an underdeep site. Regrettably this is not written in Prophet of Doom but there is no doubt in my mind that the intention of this card was to add more remote-influencing capabilities to Fallen-Pallando (consistent with his specific FW theme), similar to Hour of Need or Old Road.

This is my thought as well - although you said it much more eloquently than I did.

[Konrad Klar]

You disagree but have not yet made an argument on why it should be allowed; you've only argued for how it would work if it was allowed to be played. We're not discussing the same topic.

[...] Add any other modifications (from cards and special abilities). All modification cards must be played before either player makes a roll. [...]

If there are no "any other modifications (from cards and special abilities)" is the calculation impossible?

The Wizards: Siege
Rarity: Rare, Precise: R

Hazard: Permanent-event

Playable on a or a site. A company at this site must face an Orc attack of three strikes at 7 prowess at the beginning of its site phase. At the end of its organization phase, a company at a site must make a roll (or draw a #) and subtract one from the result for every non-scout character it contains. If this result is less than 5, the company may not move this turn. Discard when the site card is discarded or when the site card is returned to the location deck. Cannot be duplicated on a given site.

Underline mine.

What if there is nothing to subtract?

I do not say that influencing with Pallando or target at under-deeps site should be allowed. I do not say that Gwaihir or Eagle-mounts should allow for movement to/from under-deeps sites. I say that nothing in their texts prevents it.

For a Fallen-wizard, the resource revealed must match the alignment of the site at
which the attempt is taking place.

This is different restriction than:

Playing Resources at a Site

In order to play a non-Fallen-wizard resource that would normally tap a site, either the site and the resource to be played must both be hero cards or they must both be minion cards. For these purposes, a Fallen-wizard site card (or any Wizardhaven) is both a hero and minion site. This applies to all factions, allies, and items; as well as other cards played during the site phase that tap the site.

The issue is not specific to Prophet of Doom. FW Isengard has other alignment than hero or minion resources. Do alignment of FW Isengard and alignment of hero or minion resources match anyway?

[Konrad Klar]

There is also other situation where a distance between region with Pallando's site and region with site where attempt would be normally made cannot be calculated, not involving under-deeps.
Opponent's faction is in play but is not playable anymore anywhere. E.g. opponent's Orcs of Moria is in play but Moria is under effect of Tower Raided.

Errata:
"If the number of regions between Pallando's site and the site where the influence attempt would normally be made cannot be calculated, the attempt may not be taken"
would exclude both such situations and attempts from under-deeps site or against targets at or playable at under-deeps site.

[Konrad Klar]

To situations where modifier cannot be calculated and it does not make a check impossible I can add the situation when Ent-draughts is played at Wellinghall under effect of Greed. Ent-draughts does not give CP, even does not give 0 CP. This modifier cannot subtracted form a corruption check imposed by Greed. It does not exist.