Prophet of Doom

[SuperNovice]

A bit late to this party, but:

1. If Pallando is at an Under-deeps site, there are no regions between him and the site, so the number of regions subtracted is zero. Likewise, if Pallando attempts to influence a character at an Under-deeps site through the use of this card, zero would also be subtracted.

I'm repeating myself at this point but I disagree with this. Are there any other cards in the game that mention using regions that are usable in the Underdeeps? None come to mind...

It seems clear that the intention of this card was not to let Pallando drop to an Underdeeps site then influence cards that are across the map for no penalty. If there is an errata here, I feel it should be clarifying that it cannot be used in the Underdeeps instead of ramping up its power in a way that was not intended.

[Konrad Klar]

The Dragons: Here, There, or Yonder

Tap a character during his site phase at a tapped or untapped Ruins & Lairs [ ]. Make a roll modified by +3 if character is a diplomat. An ally may be played and placed under the character’s control if the result is greater than 6 plus the ally’s mind stat and the ally is not restricted from moving in this site’s region. If an ally is played, tap the site if it is not already tapped.

I do not think that it was intentional, maybe even it is against intentions of authors but wording of the card does not exclude a playing of ally under the control of character at under-deeps (even if the ally would be otherwise discarded when his company moves to that site).

[Bandobras Took]

A bit late to this party, but:

1. If Pallando is at an Under-deeps site, there are no regions between him and the site, so the number of regions subtracted is zero. Likewise, if Pallando attempts to influence a character at an Under-deeps site through the use of this card, zero would also be subtracted.

I'm repeating myself at this point but I disagree with this. Are there any other cards in the game that mention using regions that are usable in the Underdeeps? None come to mind...

Caverns Unchoked
Crack in the Wall
Gnawed Ways
Secret Entrance

But you're asking the wrong question. The real question is whether being unable to apply a modifier invalidates an entire card, and the answer is clearly no.

It seems clear that the intention of this card was not to let Pallando drop to an Underdeeps site then influence cards that are across the map for no penalty.

Because being in the Under-deeps is so safe? *If* Pallando pulls out Prophet of Doom, it's usually the turn before the Council; he usually has one turn to have his influence attempt cancelled by Wizard's Laughter before the game ends.

[SuperNovice]

Caverns Unchoked
Crack in the Wall
Gnawed Ways
Secret Entrance

But you're asking the wrong question. The real question is whether being unable to apply a modifier invalidates an entire card, and the answer is clearly no.

Those are not representative examples as they do not use regions in the resolution of the card. Two of them only clarify that the surface site is in a region and the other two only state it must not be in a specific region type as a criteria for playing the card.

Washed and Refreshed, Short Rest, and Hour of Need are more representative as they look at the distance (in regions) between the starting and ending site. Those were explicitly ruled that they cannot be played in the Underdeeps.

Power conversations aside, I'm not sure why would Prophet of Doom would follow a different method of calculating number of regions from all of the other cards that use the same process.

ICE Digest #103

In other words, to play Hour of Need you must still be at an untapped site and succesfully playing the faction taps the site *you are at* (not the one the faction would “normally” be playable, unless you happen to be there.

Correct.

Issue 2: Is this card playable from the Under-deeps at all? I would guess not since it says “including the regions containing both sites” and Under-deeps are not in a region.

It cannot be played in the Under-deeps.

ICE Digest #123

But I beg to disagree. Last night I was building an Under-deeps based deck (having never seen one been played before) and I came across Washed and Refreshed which states: “[…] When a company’s new site is revealed it may untap a number of characters equal to the number of regions less than four in its site path.” I’ve checked the CRF and can’t find anything to discourage me. So I’m assuming this would be a truly kick-arse card to use while spelunking. Am I right?

No. The company must have a site path to use Washed and Refreshed, just like A Short Rest.

[Bandobras Took]

Prophet of Doom does not use a site path, so comparisons to Washed and Refreshed/A Short Rest are irrelevant.

The ICE digest is de facto a correction to Hour of Need (which cannot be included in a FW deck, anyway). The fact that no such correction was forthcoming for Prophet of Doom is itself an indication that the two cards are to be treated differently -- as befits the fact that one card is for playing your own resources while the other card is for influencing an opponent's resources. Different functions, different mechanisms.

[SuperNovice]

I don't think you can summarily dismiss it this quickly.

All four cards I called out take the same form: "Do x modified by y" where y is a function of the distance from start to finish.
X can be different (and no one is debating that they aren't) but I fail to see why the process for counting distance (in regions) would require a different approach? Logically and mechanically, why are multiple approaches necessary? What is gained by creating a separate approach? This feels like it adds complexity by introducing conditional behaviors to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

That it wasn't specifically mentioned in the CRF is not evidence that it should be treated separately. It can just as easily be an oversight that a similar card was not mentioned. Silence is not support of either position.

I should also point out that the logic you are applying that not being able to calculate a modifier means that modifier is zero fails to hold up when applied to the other cards I used as an example. Why can't I use "A Short Rest" and use the logic you're putting forward? If there is no site path, shouldn't I just skip applying the modifier and draw 4 cards. Likewise with "Washed and Refreshed". Likewise with "Hour of Need". Shouldn't we also be arguing that the CRF should be thrown out and the interpretation of all the other cards also need to be changed to stay consistent?

There's been a lot of back and forth here so, in the interest of being clear, the position I'm arguing is that, if there is an errata, it would be that Prophet of Doom cannot be used from or to the Under-deeps (wordsmithing needed but I think my intent is clear).

[Konrad Klar]

Logically and mechanically, why are multiple approaches necessary?

I agree. Distance is the same, no matter what checks for it.

Each moving company may draw an extra card for each region less than four in its site path.

I am not native speaker, so I ask: is it the same as "Each moving company may draw number of extra cards equal 4 minus number of regions in in its site path."?
I think that if there is no path "for each region less than four in its site path." does not return anything, likewise there are no dimensions of cube that does not exist (it is not 0x0x0).

[Bandobras Took]

I can understand your logic, but I'm usually hesitant to attempt to transfer the mechanics of different circumstances to another setting. Cards which require a site path in my mind function differently than cards that do not require a site path.

You can't use A Short Rest when there is no site path because A Short Rest requires a site path.

Prophet of Doom does not require a site path. It is supposed to measure the difference in regions. Counting out the number of regions between two sites is not the same thing as determining the number of regions in the site path (Hey Come Merry Dol may result in there being zero regions in the company's site path, but the number of regions between the two sites remains the same). I do not accept cards which rely on a company's site path as being a guiding or determining factor in understanding Prophet of Doom.

I have already stated the clear difference between Old Road/Hour of Need and Prophet of Doom.

Without a clear ICE ruling, I would not apply that modifier. Inability to count regions does not invalidate Prophet of Doom any more than inability to add the number of Scouts makes it impossible to play the Ithil-Stone. If there aren't any Scouts, Ithil-Stone does not fizzle. If there aren't any regions, Prophet of Doom does not fizzle.

Were I to take a hybrid approach, I would suggest measuring between surface sites, but such a determination is up to those who issue Rulings Digests.

[Konrad Klar]

Company may move from Bree to Old Forest through Arthedain, Rhudaur, Hollin, Cardolan.
Length of its path is not the distance from Bree to Old Forest.