Re: Riddling Talk
Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:01 am
Although the reference from the player guide and CRF arguably provide support for Riddling Talk being able to cancel automatic attacks.
When a card has options, the Player playing the card will choose which option to take when playing. And so declaration of targets can proceed. But with A Lie in Your Eyes, the opponent is the one choosing from among the options, not the Player that played A Lie in Your Eyes. Perhaps the opponent should have to choose which at declaration? But there is not rule requiring/allowing that that I have seen. Still, it is fine for the opponent to make the choice at resolution.Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:28 pm I can repeat my opinion expressed in other threads.
It is very visible at example of A Lie in Your Eyes.At declaration it is not know what an opponent will choose: tapping target character, tapping an ally the character controls (if available), or making a dice roll. Result of the roll in not known too.A Lie in Your Eyes wrote:Playable on an untapped non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard character. Your opponent may either: tap the character, tap an ally the character controls, or choose for you to make a roll (draw a #). If the result is greater than the character's mind plus 6, the character is discarded (along with all cards he controls). 'That won't do... What did you see, and what did you say?'-LotRIII
Therefore it cannot be said that tapping the character, tapping an ally, dice roll, or discarding the character are declared actions.
And because target of an action must be specified at declaration of the action, the character is not target of action "tap", nor action "discard", an ally is not target of action "tap". Character is still target of A Lie in Your Eyes, just because the card is played on it, but not because any action, potentially created by A Lie in Your Eyes may operate on it. Only declared action of A Lie in Your Eyes is choice.
I disagree. They must be declared to resolved. The actions can be declared subject to the opponent's choice.Therefore it cannot be said that tapping the character, tapping an ally, dice roll, or discarding the character are declared actions.
I disagree with all of this. These actions can be declared. How else would they resolve.the character is not target of action "tap", nor action "discard", an ally is not target of action "tap". Character is still target of A Lie in Your Eyes, just because the card is played on it, but not because any action, potentially created by A Lie in Your Eyes may operate on it. Only declared action of A Lie in Your Eyes is choice.
There is no antecedent for "the creature." Instead, we have "an attack" (of the types listed) and then the list of attack types themselves, but no creatures. Therefore, it is confusing whether (A) the attack is cancelled, like a normal attack-canceling card or (B) only creatures are canceled and only because they are discarded. At the very least, it is clear that a creature attack may be canceled. However, creature attacks are typically not canceled by discarding the creature's card. Maybe this is a result of Riddling Talk's power - it can cancel ALL attacks of Slayers and Assassins. I think it is unique in this respect.Ridding Talk wrote:Riddling attempt. Playable on a character whose company is facing an attack of the type listed below. Character makes a roll (or draws a #) modified by: +2 for each sage and +1 for each Hobbit in his company. If the result is greater than: 8 against Dragons and Drakes, 10 against Men and Giants, 12 against Slayers, Awakened Plants, Orcs, Spiders, and Trolls; then name a card and opponent must reveal his hand. If the named card is in opponent's hand, the creature's card is discarded (all of its attacks are canceled) and the hazard limit against the character's company is decreased by three.
The Dragons Players Guide says that you can use Riddling Talk on an automatic-attack. And Riddling Talk is an attack-canceller so then it can cancel automatic attacks? But then we run into the issue of the "discard" language in Riddling Talk, which is confusing as mentioned above.The Dragons Players Guide wrote:Riddling Talk is a bit of a gamble as creature cancellers go, but the character does not tap and the hazard limit is reduced. Since there is no limit on the hazard limit reduction by Riddling Talk, you can easily stop your opponent from playing any more hazards on you this turn. Plus, Riddling Talk is useful against a wise variety of hazard creatures, giving it greater utility and frequency of play. Assuming the composition of your company is correct, you can use it on an automatic-attack at the least very least to look at your opponent's hard.
CRF - Rulings by Term - Active Conditions wrote: Active Conditions
- An active condition must be in play or established when the action requiring it is declared. Active conditions serve as the price of an action. They are restrictions on the player invoking the action.
- Annotation 5: If an action requires an entity to tap as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may not be declared. Tap the entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration; i.e., it is not a separate action. When it comes time to resolve the action in its chain of effects, that entity must still be in play and tapped or the action is canceled.
- Annotation 6: If an action requires an entity to be discarded as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be discarded when the action is declared; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration; i.e., it is not a separate action.
- Annotation 7: If any other active condition for an action does not exist when the action is resolved, the action has no effect; if the action was playing a card from your hand, it is discarded.
- Annotation 8: An action that requires a target is considered to have the active condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved. An action may not be declared if its target is not in play. However, dice-rolling actions may always be targeted by other actions declared later in the same chain of effects.
- Your opponent's resources may be the active conditions for your resources, but may not be the targets for your resources.
- If an "alternative" or "additional" effect does not have any "playable ..." conditions, then the "playable on ..." conditions from the primary effect of the card apply. The following cards are exceptions to this rule: Gloom, Good Sense Revolts, Half an Eye Open, Heedless Revelry, Here is a Snake, In the Name of Mordor, Inner Cunning, Nobody's Friend, Withdrawn to Mordor, and Wolf- riders.
- See also Rulings by Term, Target.
Let's focus on the declaration of Action 4: (If named card is in opponent's hand) Discard creature.CRF - Rulings by Term - Targets wrote:A target is an entity that an action is played out through. Enitities are only targets of an action if the action specifies those entities by number and type. Note that "the foo" counts as specifying one "foo."
There are cards that have alternative effects and there are cards that have a choice as one of their actions.CDavis7M wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:07 pm When a card has options, the Player playing the card will choose which option to take when playing. And so declaration of targets can proceed. But with A Lie in Your Eyes, the opponent is the one choosing from among the options, not the Player that played A Lie in Your Eyes. Perhaps the opponent should have to choose which at declaration? But there is not rule requiring/allowing that that I have seen. Still, it is fine for the opponent to make the choice at resolution
When choices need to be made:CRF Rulings by Term - Timing wrote:Annotation 27 : If a card has optional effects, the player playing the card must choose which will take place. He must do this at the time the card is played, not when it is resolved in its chain of effects. When such a card is resolved, if any active conditions for the choice of effects do not exist, the card has no effect and is discarded. The player may not at this point choose to implement an alternative effect of the card.
First - Active Conditions of Drowning Seas must be met - "Playable on a company that moved this turn to a site with a Coastal Sea [ ] in its site path." This is declared and resolved immediately.Drowning Seas wrote: Environment. Playable on a company that moved this turn to a site with a Coastal Sea [ ] in its site path. Target company loses one item of its choice and its player must randomly discard two cards from his hand.
Alternatively, if Doors of Night is in play, target company must immediately return to its site of origin.
UPDATE - I changed my mind about the opponent selecting at declaration. The choice is declared, but only made at resolution. And the target is based on that choice, and so not an active condition.CRF Rulings by Term - Timing wrote:Annotation 27 : If a card has optional effects, the player playing the card must choose which will take place. He must do this at the time the card is played, not when it is resolved in its chain of effects. When such a card is resolved, if any active conditions for the choice of effects do not exist, the card has no effect and is discarded. The player may not at this point choose to implement an alternative effect of the card.
While not literally in the text, Rats! actually has the action of the company's player making a choice by virtue of using the word "or." This is inherent in the meaning of the text. In order for the company to do (A) OR (B), the player's company must choose (A) or choose (B).Company discards one minor item of its choice or chooses one of its characters to become wounded (no body check required).
CRF, Rulings by Term, Active Conditions wrote:If an "alternative" or "additional" effect does not have any "playable ..." conditions,
then the "playable on ..." conditions from the primary effect of the card apply. The
following cards are exceptions to this rule:
• Gloom
• Good Sense Revolts
• Half an Eye Open
• Heedless Revelry
• Here is a Snake
• In the Name of Mordor
• Inner Cunning
• Nobody's Friend
• Withdrawn to Mordor
• Wolf-riders
See also Rulings by Term, Targets.
Imagine that "item of its choice" has to be specified at declaration of Drowning Seas.Drowning Seas wrote:Environment. Playable on a company that moved this turn to a site with a Coastal Sea [c] in its site path. Target company loses one item of its choice and its player must randomly discard two cards from his hand. Alternatively, if Doors of Night is in play, target company must immediately return to its site of origin.
Interesting. Riddling Talk received a CRF entry in #6 but then it was missing from CRF #7 without any mention in the changes or in the Digest.CRF #6 - 7/15/97 wrote:Riddling Talk
@ May be used on a non-hazard and/or non-creature attack.