"one more card than normal in your hand"

[Konrad Klar]

From one hand you are saying that "you may keep one more card than normal in your hand" is the same as "you may keep 9 cards in your hand" (in typical game enviroment where normal number cards that player may keep in hand is 8). So two or more such effects are not cumulative. All such effects means "you may keep 9 cards in your hand", not "one more card in hand" + "one more card in hand" + ...
From other hand, when interacting which effects that modify hand size that effects becomes cumulative.

For prowess or body, weapon/armor/shield modifier comes first and usually such effects gives bonus to the given maximum. For other modifiers this is not a rule.
"you may keep one more card than normal in your hand" is not the same as "you may keep one more card in your hand to the maksimum one more than normal".

I don't know other non-cumulative effect in game that would become cumulative in some circumstances. If Nature's Revange was played on Moria, then Rebuild The Town, and then Mischief in a Mean Way, Moria becomes Wizardhaven.
Nature's Revange and Rebuild The Town may be discarded later, but it does not change this fact. Mischief in a Mean Way is not cumulative with Nature's Revange and Rebuild The Town. Last applied non-cumulative effect takes precedence.

[Bandobras Took]

But this is not the question. The question is whether any of the effects have modified your normal hand size.

None of them do, so you use your normal hand size for each of this kind of effect. No matter what, it's only ever going to be one more.

Because keeping one more card than normal in your hand is not the same as changing hand size (similar to they way that an effect that makes cards playable is not the same as an effect which allows you to play a card), the two do not supersede each other. Whatever order you apply the effects in, the result is the same.

1) Put your extra card in hand.
2) Resolve hand size according to cards which change hand size.

Result: You are still left with an extra card.

1) Resolve hand size according to cards which change hand size.
2) Put your extra card from effect in hand.

Result: Same.

No matter how you stretch the phrase "You may keep one more card than normal in your hand," it cannot:

– Change your normal hand size.
– Allow you more than one card.

Therefore multiple effects of that nature are not cumulative, as opposed to effects which change your hand size.

[Konrad Klar]

1) Put your extra card in hand.
2) Resolve hand size according to cards which change hand size.

Result: You are still left with an extra card.

1) Resolve hand size according to cards which change hand size.
2) Put your extra card from effect in hand.

Result: Same.

Card that changes site to Wizardhaven (Chambers in The Royal Court) is played on Bag End.
News of The Shire is stored.
Result: Bag End is Border-hold.

News of The Shire is stored.
Card that changes site to Wizardhaven (Mischief in a Mean Way) is played on Bag End.
Result: Bag End is Wizardhaven.

Similarly Morgul Night and Fell Winter (with Doors of Night) gives different results if applied in different order.

Effect that establishes fixed value is not modifier (although this value may be modified later).

"Playable" does not implicite "may be played" and vice-versa.
Major item may be played with help of Bounty of The Hoard at site where major item is not playable.
Hero greater item cannot be played by FW at minion Bag End, even if it is normally playable there and site is untapped.
So such comparison is not relevant.

[Bandobras Took]

In each of your examples, the exact same kind of effect is being applied to the exact same object. Even then, without

Affects all versions of Bag End.

, they wouldn't even be affecting the same thing.

Being able to have one more card than normal in hand is not the same kind of effect as changing hand size. That is the point I was trying to make by mentioning cards that allow you to play something vs. cards that make something playable. They may seem like the same thing, but in reality, they are not.

If White Tree is played, Minas Tirith becomes a Haven for the purpose of playing hazards, but this is not the same kind of effect as Chambers changing the site type to a haven. A later effect which changes Minas Tirith to a Ruins & Lairs will not interfere with White Tree's effect because they are different kinds of effects.

Likewise, cards that change hand size do not interfere with the effects of cards that allow you to keep one more card than normal in the hand. They are different kinds of effects, neither interfering with the other.

[Konrad Klar]

So that are different kinds of effects.

Effects which increase your hand size or allow you to hold one more card in your hand mean that you draw up to your new hand size or discard down to it at the
appropriate points during the game.
Effects which increase hand size are cumulative.

Because both "effects which increase your hand size" and effects "that allow you to hold one more card" mean that "you draw up to your new hand size or discard down to it at the appropriate points during the game", but only "effects which increase hand size" are described as cumulative?
If this is that difference, then you have third category - effects that decrease hand size. That also are not described as cumulative.

[Bandobras Took]

Good point. Can you give me an example of any case where there would be a possibility of cumulative effects that decrease hand size?

[Konrad Klar]

It may be only (possibly) cumualtive with effects that increase hand size.
There is also card like Desire All For Thy Belly but it belongs to the fourth category: cards that decrease the number of cards which player may hold in his hand.

To play this card, you must discard a Spawn card from your hand. Reveal to yourself a number of cards from the top of opponent's play deck equal to the number of Spawn cards in play. Eliminated Spawn do not count. Choose one card and show it to your opponent. He must choose to either: remove the card from the game or decrease the number of cards he may hold in his hand by one for the rest of the game. Shuffle and replace all remaining cards back on top of his play deck. Remove this card from the game.

[Jambo]

Ok, not to be too pedantic but you can increase by negative values. But that's besides the point, Desire All for Thy Belly doesn't mention "normal". There are other card effects which "reduce hand size" such as The Ithil-stone and Cruel Claw Perceived. None mention "normal".

Konrad, or anyone else for that matter, can you define to me what "normal" means here?

[Konrad Klar]

I would say that "normal" generally means "without any modifing effects".

I suppose that because "one more" often is used in conjunction with "than", then automatically appears question "than what?" and first answer is "than before such modification" and "than normal" is short and sounds better.
But it may be confusing. Indeed.

I may be wrong here. English is not my native language.

[Jambo]

I agree that "normal" means "without any modifying effects". Everyone starts the game with 8 cards; therefore I don't see how there's any escaping from the fact that normal is 8. If Pallando dies, what happens to your hand size? You revert to normal.

There appears to be only two, but very distinct, ways these cards are written: (1) "one more card than normal" and (2) "increases [or decreases] to hand size".

The first one states normal and therefore must be referring to the "without any modifying effects" i.e. 8.

The second is regardless of modifying effects, and is therefore able to modify whatever hand size you're currently operating under, whether it be affected by other increases or decreases or modified relative to normal.

[Wacho]

Guys you are getting sidetracked. The CRF entry clarifies the meaning of these two phrases and equates them.[quote=CRF, Rulings by Term, Hand Size]Effects which increase your hand size or allow you to hold one more card in your hand mean that you draw up to your new hand size or discard down to it at the appropriate points during the game.
Effects which increase hand size are cumulative.[/quote]
Emphasis mine

While this may not be the most clearly worded this statement equates an effect that allows you to hold one more card than normal with changing your hand size. It then goes on to say hand size increases are cumulative.

If you don't have this definition then it is a big mess, because a card that allows you to hold one more card than normal will always allow you to hold 9 cards even in your hand size is 4. Normal is 8 so one more than normal is always 9. However, you would still only draw up to your hand size, not how many cards you can hold. Therefore if the only extra effect is you have Pallando in play you can hold 9 cards, but you still only draw up to 8 because that is your hand size. According to the CRF entry and this interpretation you'd still have to discard down to 8 even though you have a card in play that allows you to hold 9 cards. Clearly this interpretation makes no sense and is contradictory. Being allowed to hold one more card in your hand means your hand size increases by one and that is what this CRF entry is saying.

[Jambo]

Effects which increase your hand size or allow you to hold one more card in your hand mean that you draw up to your new hand size or discard down to it at the appropriate points during the game.
Effects which increase hand size are cumulative.

The wonderful world of subjectivity. I guess it just depends on how you look at this statement, as to how you eventually interpret it. I'm not saying you're wrong, before you jump on me like a ton of bricks, but it could just as easily be assumed that the "Effects which increase hand size are cumulative" statement is only making direct reference to the first of the two sentences. It is after all evidently more related to the first of the two entries. Why is there an or entry?

If you don't have this definition then it is a big mess, because a card that allows you to hold one more card than normal will always allow you to hold 9 cards even in your hand size is 4. Normal is 8 so one more than normal is always 9. However, you would still only draw up to your hand size, not how many cards you can hold. Therefore if the only extra effect is you have Pallando in play you can hold 9 cards, but you still only draw up to 8 because that is your hand size. According to the CRF entry and this interpretation you'd still have to discard down to 8 even though you have a card in play that allows you to hold 9 cards. Clearly this interpretation makes no sense and is contradictory. Being allowed to hold one more card in your hand means your hand size increases by one and that is what this CRF entry is saying.

I guess this depends on whether one interprets the crf entry in the way you have Wacho. If one interprets it in a way that "one more card than in the hand" does not fall under the remit of "Effects that increase hand size are cumulative" , then you reach a completely different conclusion ...

If there's no cumulative effect, then having multiple "one more card than normal in the hand" effects in play could just mean you'll always have a hand size of 9 regardless, to which any other card effects that directly modify hand size could then be applied.

And yes, we may have deviated a little, but the word "normal" is littered throughout many of the ICE cards and rulings, and each time it's not there in a purely arbitrary manner. Instead it serves a very important function.

[Konrad Klar]

I agree that "normal" means "without any modifying effects". Everyone starts the game with 8 cards; therefore I don't see how there's any escaping from the fact that normal is 8. If Pallando dies, what happens to your hand size? You revert to normal.

There appears to be only two, but very distinct, ways these cards are written: (1) "one more card than normal" and (2) "increases [or decreases] to hand size".

The first one states normal and therefore must be referring to the "without any modifying effects" i.e. 8.

The second is regardless of modifying effects, and is therefore able to modify whatever hand size you're currently operating under, whether it be affected by other increases or decreases or modified relative to normal.

SIDETRACK:
Adding twice 1 to the normal number will eventually add 2 to that number.
Reading it in other way, that number of cards in hand is set up at normal number +1 means that final number will be normal+1, regardless of how many such effects is in play.
Setting up constant is not cumulative with any earlier modifier (example: Gandalf's Friend played on character causes that target character requires 1 point of influence to be controlled, it does not cumulate with any other effect that would decrase/incrase this value, it just replace such effects).
Second interpretation causes many problems in case of hand size/ number cards to hold on hand.
Choose most convicable for you, but think about consequences.

[Bandobras Took]

I believe I see what you're saying:

If an ability sets allows you to hold one more card in your hand than normal, it will not matter what your current hand size is because you can alwys opt to use this ability.

Likewise, if the influence required to control a character is set to 1, it will not matter what is mind is.

If that is the case, then I still maintain that multiple effects which state you may hold one more card than normal in your hand only allow for one more card, but that such an effect may be initiated regardless of your current hand size.

So: if you have this ability and Tap Book of Mazarbul twice, you may elect to use your hand size +2 or you may elect to use the "one more card than normal" from other ability.

But this interpretation makes Ithil-Stone completely worthless, since the Lidless Eye player will always elect to use his "one more card than normal" ability.

[Konrad Klar]

But this interpretation makes Ithil-Stone completely worthless, since the Lidless Eye player will always elect to use his "one more card than normal" ability.

Personally I don't believe in that interpretation. I'm only pondering consequences of different treating effects that allow for holding one more card in hand than normal (as non-cumulative) and effects that increase hand size (as cumulative).
If you like that interpretation then don't forget Annotation 26. It is a hazard player choice in which order effects in play will be applied. It gives The Ithil-Stone a chance.

There are some places in card's texts and in rules where careless wording is used. I'm big fan of ruthless, literal respecting of rules and card's texts if that texts/rules are worded in precise, unambiguous way.
CRF, Rulings by Term, Hand Size is effort of regulating such ambiguous card's text. It says that all that cards/effects have the same meaning.
Maybe text of CRF, Rulings by Term, Hand Size is not sufficiently unambiguous.

P.S.
This whole situation remeber me discussion at meccg.net about half-orcs overtness.

Orcs that are “Half-orcs” are special - if a Half-orc is in a company with only Half-orcs and Men, the company is not overt (i.e., the Half-orcs appear to be ugly men to the casual observer)

There was a lot questions: "whether a company with Half-orcs and Men, and other (non-Troll/non-Orc) character is overt, or whether a company with (single) Half-orc and Men is overt, or whether a company with Half-orcs and (single) Man is overt, or whether a company with only Half-orcs but without Men is overt.
It is pain in the ass (sorry). Only sensible solution is putting a question: what idea stands behind this rule.
Fortuanately in this case CRF says clearly:

Note that some allies can make a company overt, but Half-orcs do not.