Yangtze2000 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:50 pm
Not using the words you would prefer does not negate my argument, and besides, you understood my meaning, hence my phrasing is perfectly adequate. And nothing you have highlighted negates my argument.
Right, I understood your argument, that's why I was able to explain why it was wrong. If you were able to explain your position using the terms and phrasing of the rules you'd see why it was wrong.
Yangtze2000 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:50 pm
The cards trump the rules, and I have explained exactly how it might be argued, in this case, that the card trumps the rules.
Cards do NOT trump the rules. There is no such rule that states this. The rules allow actions to be taken and cards may also allow actions to be taken. Some cards and rules prohibit actions from being taken and those actions cannot be taken even if another card allows that same action to be taken. If the rules or a card prohibits a particular action from being taken, another card can allow that action to be taken by specifically referencing the restrictions.
Hobbits can be played with A Chance Meeting because it references Hobbits restriction on their card, but We Have Come to Kill doesn't and so it can't. Thrall of the Voice allows a Fallen Wizard to play a 6-mind character because it references the mind restriction, but A Chance Meeting doesn't and so it can't.
Regardless, whether or not cards trump the rules or not is not even relevant to this this particular situation because there is no "rule" prohibiting this. This is a matter of (A) the fact that Fireworks must be played on a Sage and Crown of Flowers is not a Sage and (B) someone wanting to take the action of moving Crown of Flowers where the rules and card do not allow it.
Yangtze2000 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:50 pm
Lure of Nature Cannot target Hobbits.
Good catch but that isn't really relevant to the point. Any corruption check triggered by any permanent event is sufficient.
Yangtze2000 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:50 pm
Marvels Told is declared, in response. The action of playing Marvels Told has no target.
No, Marvels Told clearly has a target: Lure of Nature.
Wrong. Marvels Told is not "playable on Lure of Nature." Therefore, the action of playing Marvels Told has no target. Of course, I am understanding that when you say "Marvels Told has a target" you really mean "the action of playing Marvels Told" because Marvels Told is a card, not an action. Cards don't have targets, actions have targets.
Yangtze2000 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:50 pm
The corruption check of Marvels Told is declared, targeting Bilbo, a Sage.
Wrong order. The Corruption check is the final action on the card and is declared last. The cards in a chain are resolved in reverse order, but the actions on each card are resolved in the order in which they appear (p.30 The Wizard's Rulesbook).
If you read my following post I already explained Annotation 24. But that was not relevant to my post and it doesn't make sense to describe a corruption check first out of context, and so I didnt. We were discussing negating targets by other actions, in which case it was irrelevant whether the corruption check was declared before or action the discarding action.
Yangtze2000 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:50 pm
The discarding action is declared, targeting Lure of Nature.
Wrong order. The discarding and tapping of Bilbo action will happen first, when Marvels Told is declared, two paragraphs above, unless the opponent declares an action before it resolves.
Same as above. It is irrelevant whether the discarding action is declared before or action the CC action since they are both actions of Marvels Told. The issue being discussion is the resolution of other cards negating one of the effects of Marvels Told.
Yangtze2000 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:50 pm
The active condition is that the sage taps. And so Bilbo taps, satisfying the condition.
Bilbo tapping and discarding Lure of Nature can only realistically be viewed as one action. If the opponent doesn't want this to happen then they have to declare another action designed to thwart it before it resolves. Either Bilbo taps and Lure is discarded, or the opponent declares another action in the chain, in which case neither Bilbo taps nor Lure discards, yet.
First of all, I never said "Bilbo tapping is an action." Actions that satisfy active conditions might otherwise be actions, but when they are satisfying active conditions they are defined not to be actions by the rules I posted above. Read them.
Also, you appear to be completely missing the the rules on active conditions based on your statement: "Either Bilbo taps and Lure is discarded, or the opponent declares another action in the chain,
in which case neither Bilbo taps nor Lure discards, yet." Read Annotation 5: "
If an action requires an entity to tap as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may not be declared." A Sage is required to tap as a condition for MT's discarding action, therefore Bilbo is tapped when declaring MT in the chain of effects, before anything else is declared. Therefore, there would never be any case that "neither Bilbo taps."
Yangtze2000 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:50 pm
The conditions for the action of playing Marvels Told are verified. The only condition is that it must be the player's turn since Marvels Told is a resource. It is the players turn. The action of playing Marvels Told resolves.
No, Marvels Told does not resolve any of its actions. It is negated because it no longer has a target. This very example is given on p.41 of The Wizards Rulesbook.
Again, the Sage is not the target of the action of playing Marvels Told because Marvels Told is not "playable on a Sage." This is a clear design choice and other cards are similarly designed. Marvels Told is played in the play area, it is not played on the Sage. Marvels Told has 2 actions each with their own different target.
By your reasoning, your actual opponent would be the target of An Untimely Whisper and you would play the card on your opponent. That makes no sense.