Council of Elrond

Many Turns and Doublings

Ranger only. Cancel an attack by Wolves, Spiders, Animals, or Undead.
Alternatively, if Gates of Morning is in play, decrease the hazard limit against the ranger's company by one (no minimum).

What stops me from using this card during the org. phase?

EDIT: Also, in the same fashion, what stops me from using this card during a mov/haz phase of company A, but targetting a ranger in company B and thus decreasing the HL in company B before they have moved?

What stops me from using this card during the org. phase?

isn't hazard limit set at the start of movement hazard phase?

Marcos is correct.

MELE Rules, Hazard Limit wrote:Clarification: For the purposes of calculating hazard limits, each company's size is determined for each company at the beginning of the movement/hazard phase (e.g., it remains fixed). So, if a character is eliminated during his company's portion of the movement/hazard phase, his company's hazard limit does not change.

MELE Rules, Glossary wrote:The hazard limit is equal the company's size (to a minimum of two) when it declares its movement/hazard phase is starting.

You can't reduce a non-existent value.

Manuel wrote:

Many Turns and Doublings

Ranger only. Cancel an attack by Wolves, Spiders, Animals, or Undead.
Alternatively, if Gates of Morning is in play, decrease the hazard limit against the ranger's company by one (no minimum).

What stops me from using this card during the org. phase?

EDIT: Also, in the same fashion, what stops me from using this card during a mov/haz phase of company A, but targetting a ranger in company B and thus decreasing the HL in company B before they have moved?

Lack of target.
Have hazard limit in org. phase and play it in org.phase.

Normally hazard limit, company's site path does not exist outside of M/H phase.

then why we can use great eye:

Playable if you are Sauron. The hazard limit against all companies is decreased by one (to a minimum of two). If this card is in play, you can discard it to target and cancel the play of a hazard event played by your opponent before it resolves. This cannot be used against an on-guard card. Cannot be duplicated.

or ash mountains:

Playable at the end of the organization phase on a company containing a ranger. If the company uses region cards for its site path, tap the ranger to move as if the following pairs of regions were adjacennt: Dagorlad and Gorgoroth, Horse Plains and Gorgoroth. The company faces an attack at the beginning of its movement/hazard phase: Orcs - 4 strikes with 8 prowess. Otherwise, if the site moved to is in one of the regions listed above, the hazard limit is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 2). Cannot be duplicated on a given company.

I mean, i understand the limit is calculated at the mov/hazard phase but i don't think that we can't not use modifiers before...

Ok, some guy asked this same question in the spanish forum, and I gave out that same answer. Later on, he presented examples of cards that affect the hazard limit before the mov/haz phase like:

Great Eye, long event:

Playable if you are Sauron. The hazard limit against all companies is decreased by one (to a minimum of two). If this card is in play, you can discard it to target and cancel the play of a hazard event played by your opponent before it resolves. This cannot be used against an on-guard card. Cannot be duplicated.

Other examples would be cards like Horses:

Horses
Playable only at the end of the organization phase. Hazard limit for a company is decreased by two (to a minimum of 2). The prowess of any hazard creatures played against this company is modified by +2.

Note that, unlike other cards like Fair Travels in bla bla, which depend on the sitepath the company takes and create an effect that is resolved in their m/h phase, these cards do not depend on the sitepath and would therefore not be affected by this ruling.

EDIT: this "some guy" is coro and he posted it here 1 minute before me ! ;D

Long Events may be played even if they will not have an immediate effect on the game.

Card like Ash Mountains have an effect that depends on the site path and so are not implemented until the start of the movement hazard phase per the CRF.

Horses was errataed to be playable only at the end of the org/phase because people were using it as the ultimate fizzler. However, a card which provides an exception to the general rule does not mean the general rule is not in force. Likewise, just because a person can use Chance Meeting to play characters outside the organization phase, it doesn't mean that characters can generally be played outside the organization phase.

Likewise, Horses can be played at the end of the org phase to reduce the hazard limit during the m/h phase, but that does not mean that hazard limit reducers may generally be played during the organization phase for that purpose.

This may actually be considered a strength of horses -- that the hazard limit reduction resolves before the opponent has a chance to respond to it, which is not the case with Ash Mountains and other such limit reducers that occur during the m/h phase.

Ok, so with this you mean Horses and only Horses is playable during the org. phase because it is especifically indicated that it's playable on org. phase... although it makes sense to me, seems like it needs a more solid reason (one that maybe this game won't be able to give me...) I'll try to find out any other card not dependant on the sitepath reducing the HL to see some comparison...

Thanks for your help =)

Here are some items of interest.

The Dragons Rules wrote:Hazard Limit (Clarification)

The base hazard limit is determined (i.e. set) simultaneously at the moment a company reveals its new site or otherwise announces it is beginning its movement/hazard phase. Any cards which modify a company's hazard limit played prior to this point are then immediately applied to the company's base hazard limit in the order chosen by the player controlling the company. With such modifications established, any cards played after this point are interpreted in the order they are resolved. Any effects which modify the hazard limit against a company during its site phase are ignored. Any reduction in the hazard limit during a movement/hazard phase does not affect cards already announced and played.

CoE Digest #112 wrote:The beginning of a company's movement-hazard phase unfolds thus:
(A) Revealing the site: Simultaneously determine the company's site path and the base hazard limit. This happens immediately, and cannot be responded to.
* Opponent halving the hazard limit in order to sideboard affects the base hazard limit.
* There are special rules concerning Under-deeps movement. (CRF: Rulings by Term: Under-deeps)

(B) Resolution of the site: Simultaneously draw cards, resolve other effects of the site card, and apply any other relevant effects in play. This happens immediately, and cannot be responded to.
* Annotation 26 applies here, except for hazard limit modifying effects which were in play prior to the start of the movement/hazard phase.

(C) First chain of effects: Effects that were played during the organization phase and depend on the site or site path of a moving company, create an effect which is now declared along with actions from passive conditions.
* After all of these effects/actions have been declared, players are free to add to this chain of effects by playing cards and/or declaring more actions.

The HL modifying effect of Horses is applied at (B) without a chain of effects.

So, if i understand correctly Many turns could be played prior to mov/hazard phase?

and it woud be the same case as horses? i mean couldn't play anything in response...

I have found another examples of limit reducers:

Deeper shadow

Magic. Shadow-magic. Playable during the movement/havard phase on a moving shadow-magic-using character. In character's site path, change a Ruins and Lairs [R] to a Shadow-hold [S] or one Wilderness [w] to a Shadow-land [s]. 3 Alternatively, decrease the hazard limit against his company by one (to no minimum). Unless he is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check modified by -3.

Cloaked by darkness

Balrog specific. Playable on a company if Great Shadow is in play. You may bring this card from your sideboard into your play deck and reshuffle during your organization phase. The hazard limit against the company is reduced by one to no minimum. "Fire claimed their hearts, but shadow cloaked the forms of the Valaraukar."-Kuduk Lore

From my point of vies. As in the case of horses deeper shadow limits the reducingo to one especific phase but not in cloaked or many turns...

coro wrote:So, if i understand correctly Many turns could be played prior to mov/hazard phase?

and it woud be the same case as horses? i mean couldn't play anything in response...

I think no.
Horses are playable on company, during organization phase, but its effects resolves later, according CoE Digest #112.

MTAD is (in second use) playable on Hazard Limit and resolves normally (i.e. in its own chain of effect).

coro wrote: I have found another examples of limit reducers:

Deeper shadow

Magic. Shadow-magic. Playable during the movement/havard phase on a moving shadow-magic-using character. In character's site path, change a Ruins and Lairs [R] to a Shadow-hold [S] or one Wilderness [w] to a Shadow-land [s]. 3 Alternatively, decrease the hazard limit against his company by one (to no minimum). Unless he is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check modified by -3.

Cloaked by darkness

Balrog specific. Playable on a company if Great Shadow is in play. You may bring this card from your sideboard into your play deck and reshuffle during your organization phase. The hazard limit against the company is reduced by one to no minimum. "Fire claimed their hearts, but shadow cloaked the forms of the Valaraukar."-Kuduk Lore

From my point of vies. As in the case of horses deeper shadow limits the reducingo to one especific phase but not in cloaked or many turns...

I think that Cloaked By Darkness may be played likw Many Turns and Doublings.


That three cards in question says different things:
Horses: for that company company HL will be (will be, because there are still organization phase, when it is played) reduced by 2 to min 2 and prowess of all hazard creatures played against that company will be increased by 2.

Many Turns and Doublings/Cloacked by Darkness says simply:
Reduce HL by 1 for that company.

I think no.

No to both questions?

a) playing in mov/haz phase

b) playing something in response

I understand b) is no but i don't find a problem on a)

thanks

Many Turns and Doublings may be played (for second use) when there is HL, GoM is in play, ranger and its company.
So usually only in M/H phase.
(Who know? Maybe in some circumstances HL may appear in other phase?)
Cloaked By Darkness similarly.

Both card can be responded.

Effects of Horses ar applied at stage B of The beginning of a company's movement-hazard phase cannot be responded.

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EDIT
Corrected: Who now->Who know