Testing For The One At Mount Doom -- no victory?

The place to ask and debate all rules issues related to MECCG.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

You are treating victory conditions and conditions of playing the Craks of Doom, or Gollum's Fate as the same thing.
What I'm saying is that player that HAS The One Ring at Mount Doom, but he did not move it to Mount Doom and plays GF, or CoD cannot win according to the (literaly read) METW rule.
He can only win acording to the text of Cracks of Doom, or Gollum's Fate.
Playability of Craks of Doom, or Gollum's Fate, or Good Sense Revolts is restricted by the same general rules. That cards have targets, which are limited by appropriate general rules. So you cannot play Cracks of Doom on opponent's bearer of The One Ring likewise you cannot play Good Sense Revolts on character with company not moving to/not standing at agent's current site.

"Wins" is not condition. It is the effect.

The rules for untapping cards mention nothing about a phase restriction.
For exactly that reason I'm surprised why you are quoting them (rules for untapping cards). Matter of my interest here was only which actions may/must be taken in given phase.
The rules for playing characters do.
This would be why your example is completely irrelevant. I'll freely continue the discussion in another thread if you wish.
By the next occasion. For example in thread "Whether Eowin may be played with help of Helm of Her Secrecy only in conjunction with The Hunt, or The Great Hunt?".
To the bitter end.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

If there would be rule:
"You may play a card that gives XYZ result only under ABC conditions"
e.g.
"You may play a card that cuases that you win only if you have moved The One Ring to Mount Doom".
Then OK. That I would agree with you.
However only set of rules (known to me) that restricts playability of cards according to their potential results is set of rules regarding On-Guard cards.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3109
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

I am not treating victory conditions and playability conditions as the same thing.

I am talking about the legal play of cards.

Here is the rule from METW
If you move The One Ring to Mount Doom and play certain cards-The One Ring is destroyed and you win.
and here is a similar rule from MEDM
During your opponent's movement/hazard phase, certain cards and special abilities allow your agents to attempt to influence allies, factions, followers, and characters. After an influence attempt, the agent remains face-up and in play.

To influence an ally, follower, or character, the agent must be at the new site for the target or at the target's current site if the company did not move. To influence a faction, the agent must be at the site at which the faction is playable.
The same phrase is used in both rules "certain cards" allow a particular activity in game. In the one case, "certain cards" allow you to win the game. In the other "certain cards" allow an influence attempt.

You may not play these "certain cards" unless the play is legal according to the definitions given in the rules for the given activity; e.g. a card which says "Agent may make an influence attempt" means that it is one of the "certain cards" for the rules governing agent influence.

A card which says "X wins the game" by that phrase makes it one of the "certain cards" for the rules governing winning the game.

I know of no way to be clearer about this.
but he did not move it to Mount Doom and plays GF, or CoD
You cannot play it in the first place. It would be playing a card that does not apply to the situation, which is forbidden according to the rules governing resource play.

Likewise, I cannot play Good Sense Revolts to cause an agent to make an influence attempt unless such an attempt would be legal according to the rules on agent influence attempts.

This has nothing to do with general rules on targets, etc. (let us assume one plays Good Sense to influence a faction, just to be on the clear side). It has to do with the specific rules governing the kind of activity of which a "certain card" is a part.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

If you move The One Ring to Mount Doom and play certain cards-The One Ring is destroyed and you win.
To influence an ally, follower, or character, the agent must be at the new site for the target or at the target's current site if the company did not move. To influence a faction, the agent must be at the site at which the faction is playable.
Underlines and bold mine.

I think that quotes illustrates my notion well. First says what happens if some condition are fulfilled (you win). Second says what condition player must fulfil to be able to take the actions.
Also please note that "If you move he One Ring to Mount Doom" and "play certain cards" are listed as separate condition.

I'm fighting only for wordings? Yes. But you are fighting for wordings too.
If "move The One Ring to" (and not "The One Ring is at") makes a difference, then "If you [and] play" (and not "to [be able to play]") makes difference too.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3109
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

And it's the "and" that is crucial.

The play of "certain cards" alone is not enough for you to win, even if such cards indicate that you win the game.

It is the moving of the One Ring to Mount Doom "and" the play of certain cards (i.e. cards that indicate you win the game) that allow you to win the game.

The full quote is:
Victory Conditions wrote:The game ends when one of the following occurs during play:

1. If your Wizard is "eliminated" (i.e., through combat or corruption)-your opponent wins.
2. If you move The One Ring to Mount Doom and play certain cards-The One Ring is destroyed and you win.
3. Otherwise, the winner is decided at the Free Council. This council is called when one of the following occurs:

* When each play deck has been exhausted once, the council starts at the end of the current turn.
* After you have exhausted your play deck for the first time, you may choose to call the council at the end of any of your turns. The council starts at the end of your opponent's next turn (i.e., your opponent gets one last turn).
* You may choose to call the council at the end of your turn if you have accumulated at least 20 marshalling points. The council starts at the end of your opponent's next turn (i.e., your opponent gets one last turn).
Even if you believe that Cracks of Doom/Gollum's Fate are to be treated differently than every single other card in the game with a rule-based restriction on its play (and I most emphatically do not believe that), the game still doesn't end until the One Ring has been moved to Mount Doom (neither Cracks of Doom nor Gollum's Fate makes any mention of the game ending). Thus we open the possibility of both players legally winning. The game must end as well as a player winning -- and only moving the One Ring to Mount Doom will allow the game to end.

This is not the valid interpretation, though. You need to do X and play Y -- then you win the game. If one element of an "and" statement is false, then the end result is still false.

The question can be simplified if one looks at the MELE rules:
If you move The One Ring to Barad-dûr - Sauron is reunited with the One Ring and you win.
In this case, there is no added requirement of playing a card. It is simply the movement of the One Ring that is key.

When making MELE, they removed the necessity of playing "certain cards," but the necessity of movement still remains. METW has the necessity of movement and the necessity of playing certain cards. MEWH and MEBA have the necessity of playing certain cards (and meeting the conditions described thereon), but no necessity of movement.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Bandobras Took wrote:And it's the "and" that is crucial.

The play of "certain cards" alone is not enough for you to win, even if such cards indicate that you win the game.
Right. It is not enough to win according to rules, but still enough to win acording to the text of card.
Bandobras Took wrote:Thus we open the possibility of both players legally winning.
Right.
Other funny side effect:
Player may move The One Ring to Mount Doom, play Cracks of Doom, fail cc and then in next turn* test gold ring and (after high enough dice-roll) play The One Ring with the same company and play Cracks of Doom.
After all the condition "If you move The One Ring to Mount Doom" has been fulfilled one turn ago.
So anwer for title question is YES anyway.
Bandobras Took wrote:
If you move The One Ring to Barad-dûr - Sauron is reunited with the One Ring and you win.
In this case, there is no added requirement of playing a card. It is simply the movement of the One Ring that is key.
With -3 (for minion Barad-Dur) and +1 (for Scroll of Issildur) to roll it is even impossible to achieve in test result indicating for The One Ring for minions. However "If you move" precludes rare posibilities of infuencing or stealing The One Ring at Barad-Dur (in such case minion company must move from Barad-Dur and return, otherwise player does not win).
Because many rules are less or more artificial I cannot complain on lack of thematical sense.

*) There is some daredevil method to achieve it even in the same site phase for the same company. :)
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3109
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Right. It is not enough to win according to rules, but still enough to win according to the text of card.
I recognize that this is the common interpretation, but believe that interpretation is flawed because it does not allow the game to end. In other words, the text of the card alone is not sufficient to win the game because of the way the rules are written. In the case of something like A New Ringlord or to Challenge The Power, the text of the card is sufficient because of the way the rules for FWs/Balrog are written.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Or "If you move to" (instead of "If is at") is flawled in the same way as
"Fallen-wizard companies must use region movement." (instead of "Fallen-wizard companies cannot use starter movement") is flawled.

Common method of not using starter movement is using region movement. Common method of having The One Ring at some site is moving it to the site.
But we have also under-deep movement, special movement from one hand, and testing, influencing, stealing from other hand.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3109
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:"Fallen-wizard companies must use region movement." (instead of "Fallen-wizard companies cannot use starter movement") is flawed.
It's not particularly flawed.
Using MEWH wrote:All of the normal METW rules apply except for the specific exceptions outlined in these rules. The ME:LE rules that concern Wizards also apply to Fallen-wizards.
METW rules mention starter and region movement. The rule you have quoted overrides the METW rules for movement for wizards and their companies. It does not touch the MEDM rules for under-deeps movement or cards which expressly allow for special movement.
Common method of not using starter movement is using region movement. Common method of having The One Ring at some site is moving it to the site.
But we have also under-deep movement, special movement from one hand, and testing, influencing, stealing from other hand.
Undeniably the common method of not using starter movement is using region movement. However, as mentioned above, the White Hand rules don't affect a FW's ability to use Under-deeps movement or special movement. Where the analogy falls down is that the goal is not to have the One Ring at a given site -- that may be a requirement for a given card, but meeting the requirements of card that lets you win is only half of what's necessary.

A more accurate analogy is that the most common way of moving the One Ring to Mount Doom and playing certain cards is to do it on the same turn, but there is also moving there, moving away, then coming back and playing certain cards, or moving there, staying there several turns, and then playing certain cards that let you win.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

METW rules mention starter and region movement. The rule you have quoted overrides the METW rules for movement for wizards and their companies. It does not touch the MEDM rules for under-deeps movement or cards which expressly allow for special movement.
So:
CRF, Rulings by Term wrote:Fallen-wizards may not use starter movement, but they may use any other form of movement.
is not necessary?
Like some clarifications it may be implied from other existing rules?

ADDED:
Of course you silently assume tha at this point MEWH only refers to the METW and MELE.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3109
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
METW rules mention starter and region movement. The rule you have quoted overrides the METW rules for movement for wizards and their companies. It does not touch the MEDM rules for under-deeps movement or cards which expressly allow for special movement.
So:
CRF, Rulings by Term wrote:Fallen-wizards may not use starter movement, but they may use any other form of movement.
is not necessary?
Like some clarifications it may be implied from other existing rules?
Certainly, it was necessary. The correct reading can certainly be implied from existing rules, but it's possible to misread them, as well. Hence, clarifications. ;)
[ADDED:
Of course you silently assume that at this point MEWH only refers to the METW and MELE.
I'm not really assuming. The MEWH rules flat-out state that they are exceptions to the METW rules, and that FWs follow the MELE rules for wizards.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

All of the normal METW rules apply except for the specific exceptions outlined in these rules. The ME:LE rules that concern Wizards also apply to Fallen-wizards.
What I understand by this is: beside exception stated in MEWH , all METW, or MELE rules still applies.
Nothing more.

Taken out of thin air are assumptions:
- MEWH is only set of specific exception to METW, or MELE.
For example whole Stage Points concept is not eception to METW, or MELE. It is brand new concept. Half-Orcs are too.
-If edition other than METW, or MELE adds some possibility it can be used even if it is forbidden by MEWH.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3109
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Pretty much. White Hand only does refer to METW and MELE. Dragons, Dark Minions, and Against the Shadow all apply their concepts as normal.

To return to the topic at hand, I don't deny that there are cases of sloppy wording in the rules. Examples include definition of "playing", as well as "action" and "effect" used interchangeably, etc.

What has yet to be demonstrated is a rule that states something other than moving the One Ring to Mount Doom and satisfying the conditions of certain cards allows a hero to win and end the game by means of the One Ring. That would open up room for doubt.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
User avatar
Shapeshifter
Ex Council Member
Posts: 622
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:16 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

I just came across this:
The Wizards Companion wrote:If you move The One Ring to Mount Doom and play certain cards - The One Ring is destroyed and you win. (See page 53 for more on Rings.)
page 53 of The Wizards Companion wrote:Destroying the One Ring
The One Ring can be destroyed if its bearer has Mount Doom as his company's current site and one of the following occurs:
- The Cracks of Doom card is played and the bearer passes the corruption check called for by the card.
- Gollum is in a company at Mount Doom and the Gollum's Fate card is played.
The conditions for destroying The One Ring are: a company must have Mount Doom as its current site and either Cracks of Doom or Gollum's Fate must be successfully played and the conditions on these cards must be fulfilled.
IMO there is no need to actually move The One Ring to Mount Doom, otherwise this would have been mentioned again on page 53 of The Wizards Companion.
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3109
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Good find -- so to speak. One would wish that, since the Companions are the source of so many rules about the way we play, that their text was available online.
If you move The One Ring to Mount Doom and play certain cards-The One Ring is destroyed and you win.
One could very well argue that the section on Destroying the One Ring in said guide is merely telling you which cards can do it and clarifying the conditions. Is there a section in the Companion on winning the game? What does it say about One Ring victories?
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions & Debate (unofficial)”