Testing For The One At Mount Doom -- no victory?

[Olorin]

Let me preface this by saying I know there is no such card, but...

By the argument you make about the card invoking the rule concerning winning conditions with The One Ring, a card whose text was:

You win.

Would only permit you to win if you also had moved The One Ring to Mount Doom, OR participated in a free council (etc.) and had more points.[/quote]

[Bandobras Took]

No; such a theoretical card would have nothing to do with the Free Council.

The rules list two basic ways to win (I'm paraphrasing here):

1) If your avatar dies, your opponent wins;
2) If you move the One Ring to Mount Doom and play certain cards, you win.

It is only in the absence of either of these that

3) The winner is decided at the Free Council.

A theoretical card that simply said "You win" would still require a hero player to move the One Ring to Mount Doom to fulfil that victory condition. To avoid it, it would have to say "You win the game. You need not have moved the One Ring to Mount Doom."

Otherwise it will get lumped with the other two cards that let a hero player win.

Compare with the White Hand rules:

In order to win by recovering The One Ring at least A New Ringlord card must be played and the conditions outlined on that card must be met.

ICE was certainly capable of naming specific cards and saying that the conditions on them must be met in order to win, but they completely and utterly did not do so in the case of Heroes. They instead gave a general rule which currently applies to all cards which will let a hero player win. In order to avoid having this rule apply to it, a card which lets a hero player win must directly contradict it.

[Konrad Klar]

No; such a theoretical card would have nothing to do with the Free Council.

The rules list two basic ways to win (I'm paraphrasing here):

1) If your avatar dies, your opponent wins;
2) If you move the One Ring to Mount Doom and play certain cards, you win.

It is only in the absence of either of these that

3) The winner is decided at the Free Council.

How you would say about hypothetical card that could eliminate Wizard not through combat or cc? Something like Plague but in version affecting of Wizards and Ringwraiths.

[Olorin]

Besides which, "Cracks of Doom", being a specific card, whose text outlines a clear, un-ambiguous set of requirements, and a clear and un-ambiguous result, would be contradicted by the "general" rule requiring the ring to be "moved" to Mount Doom, and this is in violation of the first amendment, or something, right to bear arms, I forget, but its in there.

If the card contradicts the rule, the card takes precedence but does not alter the rule, am I correct?

So, for Cracks of Doom, it is sufficient to meet the requirements of the card, to obtain the result, clearly "YOU WIN". But to win by the One Ring Victory Rule, you WOULD HAVE to MOVE The One Ring to Mount Doom and play 'certain' cards.

[Bandobras Took]

The card doesn't contradict the rule. To contradict the rule, it would need to say "you do not need to move the One Ring to mount doom to win."

By saying that you can win during the site phase by making a corruption check, it makes itself one of the "certain cards" to which the rule applies. As I've said two or three times now, a card doesn't override the rule with the very same sentence that makes the rule apply to it in the first place.

[Bandobras Took]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

Playable on an untapped agent. Tap the agent who may then make an influence attempt against an ally, faction, or character. Unused general influence modification does not apply. If successful, the target is not discarded, but rather it is returned to its owner's hand.

The card says the agent may make an influence attempt. This influence attempt has to follow this rule:

During your opponent's movement/hazard phase, certain cards and special abilities allow your agents to attempt to influence allies, factions, followers, and characters. After an influence attempt, the agent remains face-up and in play.

To influence an ally, follower, or character, the agent must be at the new site for the target or at the target's current site if the company did not move. To influence a faction, the agent must be at the site at which the faction is playable.

The fact that Will Not Come Down says "the agent may make an influence attempt" means that it has to obey the rules; it does not mean that it overrides the rules about influence attempts simply because it gives the capcity in the first place.

[Bandobras Took]

How you would say about hypothetical card that could eliminate Wizard not through combat or cc? Something like Plague but in version affecting of Wizards and Ringwraiths.

I would have to say, since the rule says "(i.e. through combat or corruption)", that elimination by other methods would not allow your opponent to win, if such existed.

If the rule had said "e.g." instead of "i.e.", that would be a different story.

P.S. Sorry about the late reply.

[Bandobras Took]

Not to resurrect the thread or anything, but there's some very good circumstantial evidence for interpreting "Move the One Ring to Mount Doom" as just that.

Factions - If one of your characters is at the site specified on a faction card, he may tap to attempt to play the faction card.

Items - If a character is at an untapped site that indicates that a specific type of item card (gold ring, minor, major, or greater) is "playable," he may tap to bring an item of that type into play.

Allies - A character may tap to play an ally card if he is at the site specified on the ally card and the character meets the requirements indicated on the ally card.

In each of these cases in the METW rulebook, ICE makes reference to being at the site in question (rather than moving to it). That they specified movement in the case of cards that allow you to win a victory with the One Ring is a good indication that this was the intention.

[Jose-san]

The card doesn't contradict the rule. To contradict the rule, it would need to say "you do not need to move the One Ring to mount doom to win."

By saying that you can win during the site phase by making a corruption check, it makes itself one of the "certain cards" to which the rule applies. As I've said two or three times now, a card doesn't override the rule with the very same sentence that makes the rule apply to it in the first place.

I was rereading this thread and I wonder, how is it different from playing ACOM/WHCTK outside the organization phase? I mean ACOM/WHCTK don't state that they can be played outside the organization.

[Konrad Klar]

[offtopic]

I was rereading this thread and I wonder, how is it different from playing ACOM/WHCTK outside the organization phase? I mean ACOM/WHCTK don't state that they can be played outside the organization.

There is no rule (written or known to me) that states that characters may be played only in organization phase. There is nothing to supersede. Additionally there is rule that says the resource short-events and permanent-events may be played in any phase its player turn. Just because we are used to play characters in org. phase does not mean that it is possible only in org. phase. That is like untapping an items. Without additional card/effect it is possible only in untap phase, however it is not restricted to untap phase. Does Wielded Twice need a text a"playable outside of untap phase"? Try to be consistent and if you demand WHCtK|ACM to be played only in org. phase demand Wielded Twice to be played only in untap phase.[/offtopic]

[Jose-san]

Try to be consistent and if you demand WHCtK|ACM to be played only in org. phase demand Wielded Twice to be played only in untap phase.

I wasn't asking that those cards could only be played in the organization phase. I just wanted to understand the differences in the reasoning behind one case and the other. That you explained remarkably well, thanks

[Konrad Klar]

Ach...
So now Bandobras turn...

[Bandobras Took]

Actually, my interpretation of Chance Meeting/We Have Come To Kill is quite similar. Contrary to Konrad's assertion, there are specific rules for bringing characters into play.

During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities:

* You may play a character card. You must have enough general influence or direct influence available to control the character. You must place him at his home site or at any Haven site.
* You may play a Wizard card if you do not have one in play. You must place a Wizard at his home site or at Rivendell. You need not control a Wizard with influence-he represents you, the player.

When you play a character, you may place him into a company already at his arrival site or he may become a new company (consisting of one character). In the second case, you must place the arrival site card next to the character played.

Konrad's argument about untapping only occurring during the untap phase is not only irrelevant, but wrong, to boot. Here are the rules about tapping and untapping:

TAPPING AND CARD POSITIONS

Normally, during play, each of your cards is placed on the playing surface so that its top is towards your opponent and its bottom is towards you. During play certain cards must be "tapped" when they are used-this is a record keeping mechanism to keep track of card usage. To tap a card, rotate it 90° so that it is turned sideways-to untap a card, rotate it back 90° to its normal position.
When one of your characters is wounded, his card is placed with its top towards you (i.e., rotated 180° from an untapped position). All restrictions to tapped characters also apply to wounded characters.

Notice that the rules about untapping don't say one damn thing about what phase it's supposed to occur in. Compare with the rules on playing characters, wherein a specific phase is mentioned.

Konrad is under the impression that the rulebook is divided into phases just like the game. This is not the case. There is a brief player turn summary and a full player turn summary at various portions of the rulebook (page 4 and page 68 in mine, respectively). All other portions of the rulebook refer to mechanisms of game play.

The standard rules allow for one other method of character play, which is influencing them away from your opponent during the site phase. Chance Meeting/We Have Come To Kill have nothing to do with this.

The only rules that Chance Meeting/We Have Come To Kill override have strictly to do with site limitations -- the necessity of haven/home site and the presence of your avatar at the site.

Override those rules all you want during the site phase. You can still only play characters by influencing them away from your opponent.

Now, back on topic.

As I've said at least two or three times:

Unique. Playable at any Under-deep Dark-hold or Shadow-hold.

Is Aiglos playable during the organization phase? No.

Does Aiglos still tap the site? Yes.

Do you have to tap a character to play Aiglos? Yes.

Why?

Because that playability clause doesn't erase all the previous restrictions. It's an added restriction.

Gollum's Fate and Cracks of Doom have added playability restrictions that tell you under what circumstances you can play them. Neither of them replace the rule that you have to move the One Ring to Mount Doom. Otherwise, Aiglos would replace the rules on item play about the site phase and the tapped status of the site & character.

For a card to override the rule, according to NetReps past, the card must clearly and specifically override the rule, and this Cracks of Doom/Gollum's Fate do not do.

Except for resource long-events, you may play resource cards anytime during your own turn unless specifically prohibited by the rules or the cards themselves.

The rules can prohibit the play of cards. Thus the sentence following that one:

Unless stated otherwise, a card is playable only if its effect applies to an existing situation, hazard, attack, etc. (i.e., you may not play a card just to discard it).

Now, Cracks of Doom/Gollum's Fate have restrictions on the cards themselves -- Cracks of Doom is only playable if the One Ring is at Mount Doom. You can't move the One Ring to Mount Doom, move back to Lorien, and then play Cracks of Doom -- even though you have moved the One Ring to Mount Doom as the rule requires, you have not filled the playability condition that the card requires. Likewise, Gollum's Fate.

Side Note: In order to be able to play Chance Meeting/We Have Come To Kill, the effect must apply to an already existing situation. There is no already existing ability to play characters in the site phase outside of an influence attempt against an opponent's characters. Therefore the short events cannot be played. The situation must already exist. They cannot create it themselves.

Of course, given the ruling on Adunaphel, any free-hold, border-hold, or ruins & lairs actually means "any free-hold, border-hold, or ruins & lairs so long as it is their home site as stated in the rules," so I don't know why I'm complaining, anyway.

[Konrad Klar]

I have tried to make offtopic remarks as offtopic as possible. Unsuccessfully.
Ok. So be it.
METW, Characters and Companies, Bringing Characters Into Play:
Statement: player may take in given (Z) phase only one of activities X/Y (but no both).
IS NOT EQUAL TO
Player may take activity X/Y only in given (Z) phase.

METW, Card and Decks, Tapping And Card Positions
I'm suspecting that this quote here is relevat to something, but I don't know what is that "something" is. No one (at least until now) has doubts what tapping is, or what means other card positions.

Similarity between untapping items and playing characters is that in some phases player is able (or forced) to take these actions without additional cards/effects (for free). And in both cases that abilities does not restrict him from playing chracters/untapping items in other phases. In other phases he need however to take some efforts (he cannot play characters/untap items only because there is appropriate phase).
It is different from playing items, which may be played in site phase and only in site phase (it still may be overriden by explicit text of card e.g. Gems of Arda).

Better talk just about your impressions than about your imprressions about my impressions. It will be less prone to error.

Back to the topic:
Assuming:

If you move the One Ring to Mount Doom and play certain cards -- The One Ring is destroyed and you win.

is absolutely correct.
THEN
According to rules player may win only if he move The One Ring to Mount Doom and play certain cards (it cannot be substituted by "player has The One Ring at Mount Doom and play certain cards").
HOWEVER
(I'm still trying to be strict and litral)
It does not prevent him from playing Gollum's Fate or Cracks of Doom (btw. which cards are "certain cards" is not even specified).
He just cannot achieve victory in way that is stated in rules.
ANYWAY
Card's text states otherwise. Surprisingly or not, woluntarily or not, the bearer of The One Ring wins.

Rules may have its own opinion on phase in which items may be played (for example). They may say that items may be played only during site phase, but they are helpless against text of Gems of Arda that allows for playing item when Gems of Arda is stored.
And what? Player must invent tricky method of storing items in site phase, because condition "items may be played only in site phase" must be fulfilled (regardless of what card's text says)?

[Bandobras Took]

The rules for untapping cards mention nothing about a phase restriction. The rules for playing characters do.

This would be why your example is completely irrelevant. I'll freely continue the discussion in another thread if you wish.

Cracks of Doom and Gollum's Fate have the phrase "its bearer's player wins" because otherwise you would not win the game by playing those cards.

If I move the One Ring to Mount Doom and play Quiet Lands, I will not win.

You can't play Cracks/Gollum's Fate if you have not moved the One Ring to Mount Doom because they do not apply to the situation. To win by playing certain cards, you must have moved the One Ring to Mount Doom at some point.

Here is parallel logic to the counterargument you present, and I am once again repeating myself:

I have an agent at Bree.

Your company moves to Dol Guldur.

I play Good Sense Revolts to influence a character.

Playable on an untapped agent. Tap the agent who may then make an influence attempt against an ally, faction, or character.

You respond by saying, "According to rule, the agent must be at the target's new site."

And I reply with "all the card says is 'playable on an untapped agent.' The rules about being at the correct site don't apply because Good Sense Revolts specifically allows the agent to make an influence attempt."

At which point any player of the game will say that I am wrong.

Let's replace some things now.

You test for the One Ring at Mount Doom during the site phase.

You play Cracks of Doom.

Only playable if The One Ring is at Mount Doom. Its bearer must make a corruption check modified by -4. If successful, The One Ring is destroyed and its bearer's player wins.

I say, "According to rule, that card can only be used if you have moved the One Ring to Mount Doom."

You say, "all the card says is 'playable if The One Ring is at Mount Doom.' The rules about moving the One Ring to Mount Doom don't apply because the card lets you win using the One Ring."

Exact same argument, and just as ridiculous.