Situation:
fw/hero company is at site in Shire/Cardolan/Arthedein
Indur goes there,enters and declares cvcc. I play Indur Unleashed and oppoent tries to use Farmer Maggot. What does happen?
Farmer Maggot vs Indur Unleashed
IMustNotFear.FearIsTheMind-Killer.FearIsTheLittle-death ThatBringsTotalObliteration.IWillFaceMyFear.
IWillPermitItToPassOverMeAndThroughMe.
AndWhenItHasGonePast,IWillTurnTheInnerEyeToSeeItsPath.
WhereTheFearHasGoneThereWillBeNothing. OnlyIWillRemain.
IWillPermitItToPassOverMeAndThroughMe.
AndWhenItHasGonePast,IWillTurnTheInnerEyeToSeeItsPath.
WhereTheFearHasGoneThereWillBeNothing. OnlyIWillRemain.
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Bandobras Took
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In order for Farmer Maggot to attempt cancel the attack, the attack's declaration must have resolved.
At this point, the attacking company has fulfilled all requirements for CvCC according to the rules.
You now use Farmer Maggot's ability to move to another site. This would normally also cancel the attack, but Indur Unleashed prevents that.
There is nothing in the CvCC rules in the MELE rulebook that indicate at this point that the attacking and defending companies must still be at the same site. That check occurred earlier.
Indur attacks as normal. Choose a defending character.
At this point, the attacking company has fulfilled all requirements for CvCC according to the rules.
You now use Farmer Maggot's ability to move to another site. This would normally also cancel the attack, but Indur Unleashed prevents that.
There is nothing in the CvCC rules in the MELE rulebook that indicate at this point that the attacking and defending companies must still be at the same site. That check occurred earlier.
Indur attacks as normal. Choose a defending character.
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Konrad Klar
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I think "attack is canceled" is just side effect of fact that target company is no longer in right place. Farmer Maggot does not affect the attack.Farmer Maggot wrote:Unique. If one of your companies faces an attack while at a site in The Shire, Arthedain, or Cardolan, you may immediately replace its site card with another site card in The Shire, Arthedain, or Cardolan. (from your location deck). If your company takes this option, the attack is canceled and this card is discarded. 'Be off!' I said. 'There are no Bagginses here...but you can go by the road this time.'-LotRI
It is that same sitation when one-character company is facing attack and before strike assignation the character is removed from active play for some reasons, e.g. cc. Even if such attack states that it cannot be canceled it cannot be proceded any more.
Other similar situation (type of "must vs cannot"):
(Errated) Dragons Rules says:
If a character is eliminated or otherwise removed from play before he has faced all of his assigned strikes, those strikes he has yet to face are then considered to be successful.
CRF, Annotation 19 says:
Following each successful strike or failed strike, a body check must be rolled (unless the failed strike has no body).
But if a character is eliminated or otherwise removed from play then there is no one for that bc would be make.
I think also that there is at least one other card that describes action that is not its direct effect.
Underline mine.Here, There, or Yonder wrote:Tap a character during his site phase at a tapped or untapped Ruins & Lairs [R]. Make a roll (or draw a #) modified by +3 if the character is a diplomat. An ally may be played and placed under the character's control if the result is greater than 6 plus the ally's mind stat and the ally is not restricted from moving in this site's region. If an ally is played, tap the site if it is not already tapped.
Tapping of site is result of playing the ally, not direct result of Here, There, or Yonder.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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Bandobras Took
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There is a difference between a side effect and an effect directly written on the card. Farmer Maggot does affect the attack. Farmer Maggot cancels it as stated on the card.
It is not the same situation as a character being removed from play before facing his strike, because presumably the card in question said absolutely nothing about fizzling a strike/attack by removing the character from play. In this case, the attack is fizzled, not canceled.
None of the situations you described has any bearing on the basic question. Once a creature attack has resolved and been keyed successfully, you cannot fizzle it by changing the site/region type -- the moment has passed. At least, that's the gist of things I've gotten from the NetRep thread on the subject. The same thing is occurring here with CvCC. You only check same site to create the attack in the first place. Only after the attack has been created can anybody attempt to cancel it. The only way to fizzle this attack would be to remove all defending characters facing strikes from play. Farmer Maggot does two distinct things:
1) Moves the company to another site; and
2) Attempts to cancel the attack.
1) Works. If Indur Unleashed has been played, 2) does not, and there is no reason to suppose the attack fizzles because of 1).
It is not the same situation as a character being removed from play before facing his strike, because presumably the card in question said absolutely nothing about fizzling a strike/attack by removing the character from play. In this case, the attack is fizzled, not canceled.
None of the situations you described has any bearing on the basic question. Once a creature attack has resolved and been keyed successfully, you cannot fizzle it by changing the site/region type -- the moment has passed. At least, that's the gist of things I've gotten from the NetRep thread on the subject. The same thing is occurring here with CvCC. You only check same site to create the attack in the first place. Only after the attack has been created can anybody attempt to cancel it. The only way to fizzle this attack would be to remove all defending characters facing strikes from play. Farmer Maggot does two distinct things:
1) Moves the company to another site; and
2) Attempts to cancel the attack.
1) Works. If Indur Unleashed has been played, 2) does not, and there is no reason to suppose the attack fizzles because of 1).
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Konrad Klar
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I must agree that it is not explicitly stated in rules, that changing site, where attacks takes place, or to which creature is keyed (or where attacking agent is standing) interrupts proceding the attack.
My assumption is just that Farmer Maggot works in such way because such regularity exists. My interpretation of Farmer Maggot rely on that assumption.
I did not say anything about fizzling. Once attack (or anything else) is resolved it is too late to fizzle it. It may be canceled, interrupted, removed, but not fizzled.
And I think also that there is important difference between changing abilities of site, or target company and removing site, or target company as whole.
For example: if Morgul Rats was played against a company with wounded character, then once resolved MR does not check for presence of wounded character or Doors of Night. It also does not check if site, to which it was keyed is right type. Once resolved attack of Morgul Rats may not be interrupted for such reasons.
Situation when company is removed completely in middle of attack or it is no longer on site where attack was initiated is different (it is moot point and matter of discussion what happens in this case).
Maybe this question was not discussed earlier* because beside Farmer Maggot there are only two other effects that woul lead to such situation: Winds of Wrath and Chance of Beong Lost (both are hazards and hazard player is usually hardly interested in interrupting an attack).
*) Of course Farmer Maggot was often discussed but as only effect in its class.
My assumption is just that Farmer Maggot works in such way because such regularity exists. My interpretation of Farmer Maggot rely on that assumption.
I did not say anything about fizzling. Once attack (or anything else) is resolved it is too late to fizzle it. It may be canceled, interrupted, removed, but not fizzled.
And I think also that there is important difference between changing abilities of site, or target company and removing site, or target company as whole.
For example: if Morgul Rats was played against a company with wounded character, then once resolved MR does not check for presence of wounded character or Doors of Night. It also does not check if site, to which it was keyed is right type. Once resolved attack of Morgul Rats may not be interrupted for such reasons.
Situation when company is removed completely in middle of attack or it is no longer on site where attack was initiated is different (it is moot point and matter of discussion what happens in this case).
Maybe this question was not discussed earlier* because beside Farmer Maggot there are only two other effects that woul lead to such situation: Winds of Wrath and Chance of Beong Lost (both are hazards and hazard player is usually hardly interested in interrupting an attack).
*) Of course Farmer Maggot was often discussed but as only effect in its class.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Did any of you guys look at the COE Digest? There are already two related rulings:
b) What if you use a card such as Forewarned is Forearmed or Unabated in Malice to cancel the canceling ability of Farmer Maggot? Does this cancel Farmer Maggot?
*** Canceling an attack is an additional after-effect of Farmer Maggot. Just because an attack can't be cancelled due to certain cards, doesn't mean that you can't teleport with Farmer Maggot. The attack won't be cancelled, as in the case of Forewarned at Ettenmoors and Unabated, but the company will have already teleported, thus they are no longer there to face the attack. [COE 19]
>>
So, Farmer Maggot vs. Unabated in Malice (card text below): Galdor is at the Barrow-downs on which an Unabated in Malice is played. Farmer Maggot is in play. Galdor goes in, faces the attack and instead of fighting it he lets Farmer Maggot take him to Old Forest. Farmer Maggot states the attack is now cancelled. Unabated in Malice states in return that the first attempt to cancel the attack instead cancel the Unabated. So ( In My Hysterical Opinion ) Galdor finds himself still facing the 1@8 Undead attack. Is this correct?
*** That is correct, though the movement effect of Farmer Maggot still resolves successfully. Consider it a parting shot by the Barrow-wights. [COE 58]
>>
10. If an Assassin targets Bilbo at Bag-End and Farmer Maggot carts his butt off to the Old Forest, all attacks of the Assassin are effectively cancelled and the Assassin is discarded, even though the same Assassin is keyable to Old Forest (i.e. the Assassin is sort of "keyed" to Bag End when he attacks there) correct??
*** The remaining attacks of the assassin are not rekeyable to the border-hold of Old Forest. The remaining attacks are discarded without effect, but not cancelled. The attack is still considered faced. [COE 58]
>>
b) What if you use a card such as Forewarned is Forearmed or Unabated in Malice to cancel the canceling ability of Farmer Maggot? Does this cancel Farmer Maggot?
*** Canceling an attack is an additional after-effect of Farmer Maggot. Just because an attack can't be cancelled due to certain cards, doesn't mean that you can't teleport with Farmer Maggot. The attack won't be cancelled, as in the case of Forewarned at Ettenmoors and Unabated, but the company will have already teleported, thus they are no longer there to face the attack. [COE 19]
The last two rulings shows that attacks are keyed to certain areas and if you leave that area the attack is fizzled. I assume that, logically, CVCC works the same way.
Btw, Ben, if you key a creature to a site in an attack, and the opponent changes the site type as a response, the attack is canceled. Not sure if you were saying otherwise.
Thank god for the searchable COE digest I have!
Frodo
b) What if you use a card such as Forewarned is Forearmed or Unabated in Malice to cancel the canceling ability of Farmer Maggot? Does this cancel Farmer Maggot?
*** Canceling an attack is an additional after-effect of Farmer Maggot. Just because an attack can't be cancelled due to certain cards, doesn't mean that you can't teleport with Farmer Maggot. The attack won't be cancelled, as in the case of Forewarned at Ettenmoors and Unabated, but the company will have already teleported, thus they are no longer there to face the attack. [COE 19]
>>
So, Farmer Maggot vs. Unabated in Malice (card text below): Galdor is at the Barrow-downs on which an Unabated in Malice is played. Farmer Maggot is in play. Galdor goes in, faces the attack and instead of fighting it he lets Farmer Maggot take him to Old Forest. Farmer Maggot states the attack is now cancelled. Unabated in Malice states in return that the first attempt to cancel the attack instead cancel the Unabated. So ( In My Hysterical Opinion ) Galdor finds himself still facing the 1@8 Undead attack. Is this correct?
*** That is correct, though the movement effect of Farmer Maggot still resolves successfully. Consider it a parting shot by the Barrow-wights. [COE 58]
>>
10. If an Assassin targets Bilbo at Bag-End and Farmer Maggot carts his butt off to the Old Forest, all attacks of the Assassin are effectively cancelled and the Assassin is discarded, even though the same Assassin is keyable to Old Forest (i.e. the Assassin is sort of "keyed" to Bag End when he attacks there) correct??
*** The remaining attacks of the assassin are not rekeyable to the border-hold of Old Forest. The remaining attacks are discarded without effect, but not cancelled. The attack is still considered faced. [COE 58]
>>
b) What if you use a card such as Forewarned is Forearmed or Unabated in Malice to cancel the canceling ability of Farmer Maggot? Does this cancel Farmer Maggot?
*** Canceling an attack is an additional after-effect of Farmer Maggot. Just because an attack can't be cancelled due to certain cards, doesn't mean that you can't teleport with Farmer Maggot. The attack won't be cancelled, as in the case of Forewarned at Ettenmoors and Unabated, but the company will have already teleported, thus they are no longer there to face the attack. [COE 19]
The last two rulings shows that attacks are keyed to certain areas and if you leave that area the attack is fizzled. I assume that, logically, CVCC works the same way.
Btw, Ben, if you key a creature to a site in an attack, and the opponent changes the site type as a response, the attack is canceled. Not sure if you were saying otherwise.
Thank god for the searchable COE digest I have!
Frodo
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Konrad Klar
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COE19:
It is probably a point I'm making.
"Canceling an attack is an additional after-effect of Farmer Maggot."
I would say "Canceling an attack by Farmer maggot is a side effect of target not being in right place".
I think they are equal statements.
Similarly as removing a only valid target of strike (due to failed cc for example). Attack cannot be proceded so it is effectively canceled, regardless of its ability (cannot be canceled).
It is probably a point I'm making.
"Canceling an attack is an additional after-effect of Farmer Maggot."
I would say "Canceling an attack by Farmer maggot is a side effect of target not being in right place".
I think they are equal statements.
Similarly as removing a only valid target of strike (due to failed cc for example). Attack cannot be proceded so it is effectively canceled, regardless of its ability (cannot be canceled).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.