Council of Elrond

Forced March wrote:Playable at the end of the movement/hazard phase on a company that moved to a Darkhaven. The company may move to an additional site this turn. Another site card may be played and another movement/hazard phase immediately follows for that company.

Leg It Double Quick wrote:Playable at the end of the movement/hazard phase on a moving company. Tap all untapped characters in the company. The company may move to an additional site this turn. Another site card may be played and another movement/hazard phase immediately follows for that company.

Far Below the Deepest Delvings wrote:Playable during the movement/hazard phase on a company moving to an Under-deeps site. At the end of its movement/hazard phase, target company attempts to move to an additional site. Another site card is played and another movement/hazard phase immediately follows.

CRF Movement/Hazard Phase wrote:This means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase.

As I understand the differences in wording on these cards:

1) Far Below is playable at any time during the m/h phase when a company is moving to an under-deeps site;
2) Forced March must be played at the end of the m/h phase, when all companies have moved;
3) Leg It must be played at the end of the m/h phase, when all companies have moved;
4) You choose which company to play Forced March/Leg It on at the end of the m/h phase, while Far Below must necessarily be played during a specific company's m/h phase.

Is this correct?

1. I understand it in the same way.
2-4. Why "when all companies have moved"? There is not a common M/H phase for all companies, each company has it's own separate M/H phase (or phases). Each of M/H phases has its own "end" (unless interrupted e.g. by returning company to the site of origin).

The player has movement/hazard phase wherein it follows a procedure for each of his companies, just as he has a site phase wherein he follows a procedure for each of his companies. Compare with cards like Master of Esgaroth/Gangways/World Gnawed:

Master of Esgaroth wrote:Playable at the end of the organization phase on a moving company. If the company moves to a Border-hold, it can take a second movement/hazard phase immediately following its first movement/hazard phase.

World Gnawed wrote:Playable during the movement/hazard phase on a company moving to an Under-deeps site. At the end of its movement/hazard phase, target company attempts to move to an additional Under-deeps site which it has not attempted to move to yet this turn.

Gangways wrote:At the end of its movement/hazard phase, each of your moving companies may attempt to move with Under-deeps movement to a new site they have not used yet this turn. Another site card is played and a movement/hazard phase immediately follows.

There is a difference between the end of a company's movement/hazard phase and the end of your movement/hazard phase as a player.

MELE Rules, Playing and Drawing Cards wrote:You may only play hazards during your opponent's movement/hazard phase (. . .) During your movement/hazard phase, both players draw cards when each company moves.

Emphasis added, the expressions of "opponent's movement/hazard phase" and "your movement/hazard phase" are used throughout.

The end of your movement/hazard phase occurs immediately before the beginning of your site phase.

For me wording like "its first movement/hazard phase." indicates that M/H phase is associated with company, at least that one mentioned "movement/hazard phase". Such wording does not preclude, but also does not prove existence of common (general) M/H phase for all companies (for given player in other words).

Wording that would prove existence of common M/H phase would sound like (for example):

"During M/H phase each company may take following activities:".

Please compare following quotes from Lidless Eye, Appendices, Full Player Turn Summary:

# Movement/Hazard Phase

Follow this procedure for each of your companies. Each company has a separate movement/hazard phase. You decide which of your companies goes first, second, etc.;

# Site Phase

In the order you decide (i.e., you decide which of your companies goes first, second, etc.), each of your companies may do nothing or follow this procedure:

Underline mine.

Can you say that player that does not have a companies still has M/H phase?

MELE Rules, Playing and Drawing Cards wrote:You may only play hazards during your opponent's movement/hazard phase (. . .) During your movement/hazard phase, both players draw cards when each company moves.

If it is my company's phase it is also my phase. If it is phase of my opponent's company it is also my opponent's phase.

Quoted rule is still valid during each M/H phase for given company. Because it does not say about things that are specific for given company's M/H phase (like targets of hazards, for example), such wording ("your M/H phase", but not "your company's M/H phase") is precise (even if there is no common M/H phase).

Bandobras Took wrote:The end of your movement/hazard phase occurs immediately before the beginning of your site phase

CRF says:

This means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase.

Both statements are not synonymous. There is possibility that moving company has it's M/H phase completed and still is not at site.

Each company has an 'end of move/haz phase', and that's when you play cards like Forced March. There's also an 'end of all move/haz phases', but that's a little different. Here's a breakdown of what happens:

miguel in 2006 wrote:(1) We resolve movement/hazard phases normally, until we get to the last one.

(2) Resolve that one normally, until we get to the 'end of movement/hazard phase', triggering effects like from AaU / playing cards like Bridge.

(3) Then we move into 'end of all movement/hazard phases'. The companies combine. Cards affected by this are dealt with (AaU, Fellowship). Then we discard the old site and reconcile hand.

(4) Beginning of site phase. Now it's allowed to tap for river and then face possible auto-attacks (and play cards affecting that).

I consider the above to be true. You can read about it in more detail here: http://www.meccg.net/dforum/viewtopic.p ... highlight=

First off, there's the fact the Full Player Turn Summary calls it the Movement/Hazard Phase, not the Movement/Hazard Phases.

It can only be the Movement/Hazard Phase as whole, not a company's movement/hazard phase, to which Noose of the Sea's text applies:

Affects each company with a Costal Sea in its site path. The on-going effects of all resource short-events that were played during the organization phase are cancelled for the duration of the movement/hazard phase and the site phase. Such short-events have no effect on this card (i.e., it may not be cancelled by such a short-event).

It cannot be more than one movement/hazard phase, because it says "the movement/hazard phase," and it does not say "each movement/hazard phase." Unless there is a general movement hazard phase, this can only affect one company despite its opening sentence. Since it does affect each company, there must be one general movement/hazard phase for a player during his turn, and Noose of the Sea applies to all valid companies m/h phases.

Master of Esgaroth from the same set shows that they had wording for "company's movement/hazard phase" if they wished.

Also note that it refers to the movement/hazard phase and the site phase in the same sentence as synonymous things.

Miguel:

That is indeed revealing, but it does not settle the question of cards that take effect/are playable at the end of the movement/hazard phase as opposed to a movement/hazard phase or each movement/hazard phase or its movement/hazard phase.

Since there is a distinction in cards between the end of the movement/hazard phase and the end of a company's, don't the ones that specify end of the movement/hazard phase naturally belong to step 3?

No cards are playable at step 3: 'end of all move/haz phases'. Settled.

Fair enough.

Just curious.

Bandobras Took wrote:It cannot be more than one movement/hazard phase, because it says "the movement/hazard phase," and it does not say "each movement/hazard phase." Unless there is a general movement hazard phase, this can only affect one company despite its opening sentence. Since it does affect each company, there must be one general movement/hazard phase for a player during his turn, and Noose of the Sea applies to all valid companies m/h phases.

It says "Affects each company with a Costal Sea in its site path.".
Please note that during site phase the companies affected by Noose does not have a site path anymore.
So because effect last also through site phase I cannot read text of Noose of The Sea in other way than "for each affected company".
So finally: if effect is limited for some companies, does not exist during m/h phases of other companies why "movement/hazard" in text of Noose would mean "general M/H phase". *

Now something about practical implications of your theory.
If there is a general movement-hazard phase then what happens during this phase?
Can hazard be played if player does not have companies? How hazard limit should be calculated in such situation?

*) ...and so on. When I Know Anything is playable on sage. What means "Tap sage and site"? May be it any sage, because it is not worded "Tap target sage and target site".

Konrad Klar wrote:It says "Affects each company with a Costal Sea in its site path.".

Right, and since it's a long event, that means that if there's a coastal sea in a company's site path when they have a site path, the effects will apply.

Please note that during site phase the companies affected by Noose does not have a site path anymore.

Duly noted, but what does that have to do with anything?

So because effect last also through site phase I cannot read text of Noose of The Sea in other way than "for each affected company".
So finally: if effect is limited for some companies, does not exist during m/h phases of other companies why "movement/hazard" in text of Noose would mean "general M/H phase". *

You're not responding to what I said at all. "The movement/hazard phase" is singular. Therefore it cannot apply to more than one movement/hazard phase. If that movement/hazard phase is a company's, then it cannot be any other company's, because then it would not longer be the movement hazard/phase. Noose will apply its effects when a company has a coastal sea in their site path, and those effects will last for the duration of the movement/hazard phase and the site phase.

Now something about practical implications of your theory.
If there is a general movement-hazard phase then what happens during this phase?

As the rules detail, each of your companies goes through its movement/hazard phase.

Can hazard be played if player does not have companies? How hazard limit should be calculated in such situation?

According to Miguel, no cards can be played during step 3, which would occur immediately, since all your company's m/h phases have ended.

*) ...and so on. When I Know Anything is playable on sage. What means "Tap sage and site"? May be it any sage, because it is not worded "Tap target sage and target site".

Light Enchantment. Playable on a sage during the site phase at a site where "Information" is playable. Tap sage and site.
Tap sage to modify one corruption check by a character in his company by +3. Sage makes a corruption check.

"Sage" and "Site" in this imperative sentence refer to the antecedents in the previous sentence. I'm not sure why you ask, since we're still dealing with a singular entity in each case.

CRF Returning to Site of Origin wrote:If a company returns to its site of origin, it may do nothing during its site phase.

According to the rules, companies have a site phase, but that does not mean that a player does not have a general site phase that is handled through each of his companies:

Untimely Brood wrote:One non-unique ally with a mind of 1 is playable at one of your tapped or untapped protected Wizardhavens each of your site phases.

Untimely Brood does not allow 1 ally/company's site phase, or it would say so.

Companies have site phases which occur during the player's site phase.

In exactly the same manner, companies have movement/hazard phases that occur during the player's movement/hazard phase.

Bandobras Took wrote:

Can hazard be played if player does not have companies? How hazard limit should be calculated in such situation?

According to Miguel, no cards can be played during step 3, which would occur immediately, since all your company's m/h phases have ended.

That's not exactly true. Step 3 is actually a part of the very last company's very last movement/hazard phase, not a separate entity (note how you discard the old site and reconcile your hand at the end of it).

Also note:

CoE Rulings Digest #17 wrote:19. This happened - all the characters died. ok, that m/h phase resolves as described above. next turn, no characters or wizards have been drawn up yet, so there are no characters or companies. Is the m/h phase skipped entirely and it goes immediately to the end of turn phase? OR Is there still a m/h phase? it is important for the guy with no characters who needs to play gates and twilight or things out of his hand during the org phase, then would resolve hand size once at the end of the m/h phase, and resolve hand size again during the end of turn phase.
*** MELE Companion pg. 94: "Movement/Hazard Phase. Follow this procedure for each of your companies. Each company has a separate m/h phase."
The characterless player has no companies and thus has no movement/hazard phase. The opponent also cannot play any hazards since there must be a company for hazards to be played on, event or otherwise.
It is within the m/h hazard phase that one of the hand size issues is reconciled. Thus, this is skipped. The only time that any players will reconcile their hand sizes for a characterless player's turn is during the End-of-Turn phase.

Simple question:
What happens, in your opinion, if company affected by Noose has another M/H phase and during that M/H phase does not have Costal Sea in its site path? Are effects of Noose still in force during that M/H phase?
(in my opinion no).

In my opinion, yes, because I feel that the movement/hazard phase referred to is the general m/h phase for the player.

As I understand different interpretation of Noose of The Sea is one sole practical implication of "common M/H phase theory"? Right?