Council of Elrond

CRF entry on Hidden Haven wrote: If both players reveal this as a starting stage card, on the same site, at the same time, it is set aside, and may not be played on that site by either player until the game begins.

CoE Digest #55 wrote:The CRF entry on Hidden Haven is not very clear. Here's a clarification:

*** If Hidden Haven is drafted as a starting stage card, your starting
site is chosen at that time, before the next card is drafted. If both
players draft Hidden Haven at the same time, then both players
immediately draft their starting sites. If both players draft the same
site, then Hidden Haven is placed out of play, but each player must
stick with their chosen starting site. Note that that particular copy
of Hidden Haven is out of play and cannot be played on any site.

White Hands rules insert about starting stage ressources wrote:These cards should be revealed as if they were starting characters with duplicate unique cards being discarded.

underlines mine

Now I wonder what really happens with duplicated Hidden Havens.

There seem to be the following possibilities:

a) it is placed off to the side and may go to the deck after the draft

b) it is placed off to the side and may not go to the deck after the draft

c) it is placed out of play

d) it gets discarded like unique stage resources

e) ???

c should be the correct answer if the interpretation in the CoE Digest is right here which I doubt.

A related question: do duplicated unique stage ressources really go to the discard pile? I always thought that one may put them into the play deck.

To be honest, I'm not really sure how one can interpret "set aside" as "placed out of play," as the two functions are completely different.

The CRF entry seems completely clear to me -- once the game begins, the Hidden Haven that has been set aside may be played when Stage Resources are normally played -- during your organization phase.

I'm not sure how the NetRep arrived at a process that is completely different from anything described in the CRF entry -- "not very clear" is the least of adjectives to describe such a thing.

Duplicate unique cards are placed in the discard pile unless there is an errata of which I am not aware.

If this ruling of CoE digest #55 still is valid, then this one copy of Hidden Haven is out of play. You can two more copies in your deck and can play them on the site.
If characters bounce during the draft they are put in the play deck. I have never seen an other way of play.

Was it ever valid? How on earth can "set aside" and "may not be played until the game begins" be read as "remove from play" and "may not be played at all?"

Rulings found in the CoE digests are always valid unless overturned in a later digest. AFAIK the ruling in question is very much in effect.

So we go with answer c) it is placed out of play. No problem. I think, however, that either a further clarification will be needed in a later digest or the current ruling should be overturned.

The ruling seems crystal clear to me, very well articulated. What exactly should be clarified? This ruling was discussed within the netrep team of the time and that's what they ended up with.

IMO it wouldn't really be a solution to keep Hidden Haven "aside" to be played later because that would just open up a can of worms. Discarding it in the manner of duplicated unique stage resources could be an option, but I don't really see good enough reasons to overturn the current ruling.

Shapeshifter wrote:So we go with answer c) it is placed out of play.

Actually the answer is more like
b) it is placed off to the side and may not go to the deck after the draft, and after the draft HH is dealt with like characters not going in the deck. But for the purpose of gameplay, it doesn't really matter.

miguel wrote:The ruling seems crystal clear to me, very well articulated. What exactly should be clarified? This ruling was discussed within the netrep team of the time and that's what they ended up with.

It's not the ruling itself that is unclear it's more the interpretation of the wording of the original CRF entry. At least for me and Bandobras it seems a bit strange how one could read is set aside, and may not be played on that site by either player until the game begins as is placed out of play. Probably there was a good reason for this interpretation. As the ruling is now, however, it doesn't really look like a clarification to be honest.

Ok, I wasn't on the team at that time, but here's my clarification

"If both players reveal this as a starting stage card, on the same site, at the same time, it is set aside (in the same manner as bounced characters), and may not be played on that site by either player until the game begins (meaning you cannot replay Hidden Haven during draft once it has bounced)."

The NetRep was probably thinking about how ICE used the phrase "off to the side" on numerous cards like Sacrifice of Form, Press Gang, Revealed to All Watchers, etc. Those cards are effectively removed from play, although it is true that in these examples the card set off to the side may come back into play later. I can't think of any cards that use the literal words "set aside", but perhaps they are out there.

Frodo